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Apparitions at Holy Love Ministries Revisited

A few years ago, I first wrote about Holy Love Ministries, the 83-acre site of Maranatha Spring in Ohio. People have been going to this place since the early 1990‘s, drawn by founder Maureen Sweeney-Kyle’s claim that Jesus and the Blessed Virgin Mary and a host of saints are appearing to her with messages. On the surface, everything about the site appears to be Catholic, but it is not.  The founders and visionary claim it is “ecumenical” and therefore does not fall under Catholic Church authority.

I am writing again about Holy Love because some followers contacted me regarding my article of 11/20/09 (reproduced below), “Proclamation on Holy Love Will Test Hearts and Obedience”.

Thomas T. emailed me last summer and we had a back and forth debate on the authenticity of the apparitions. He challenged my use of the word “condemned” in describing the local bishop’s assessment of Holy Love.

As a journalist, I care about accuracy. I had not used the word “condemned” incorrectly, but the term is an older one and not in common current theological use. I had been warned by Thomas and a couple of others (friends of his, I’m guessing), that souls are at stake should my words turn people away from Holy Love. I must disagree with Thomas in this case as souls are at least equally at stake should people follow a false apparition.

In my November of 2009 article, I said, “Despite all the usual Catholic trappings — chapel, statues, rosaries and religious bookstore, not to mention the throngs from across the country and globe — the purported visions by Maureen Sweeney-Kyle have been condemned.”  Although the word “condemned” is the old term for a private revelation that received the “constat de non supernaturalitate” judgment and my readers may have been better served by my simply reporting what the bishop said, the point remains: The conclusion of the bishop’s evaluation is that if there are any apparitions going on there, they are not from God.

Actual apparitions (as distinguished from hallucinations or other psychological phenomena) can only be from one of two sources: God (supernatural) or an influence of the devil (demonic, preternatural). You might wish to review the meaning of the these theological terms.  The devil has the ability to deceive with cleverly-disguised religious apparitions, so the Catholic Church carefully evaluates such sites for discrepancies that conflict with Scripture and Tradition.  If the local bishop, after investigating, finds nothing supernatural, he will issue a decree of “constat de non supernaturalitate” (the supernatural is not established) to help warn and protect the faithful. That is what the local bishop issued in the case of Holy Love.

Let’s examine that in more detail.

Official Church Pronouncement

What actually happened according to The Morning Journal newspaper of Ohio, was that Bishop Richard Lennon, Ordinary of the Diocese of Clevland, issued a Decree to clergy and laity of the diocese regarding Holy Love Ministries of Lorain County on Nov. 11, 2009:

Having been directed by the Holy See (in Rome) to act definitively in the matter of the alleged apparitions … and having reviewed the theological content of the alleged apparitions to Maureen Sweeney-Kyle and having consulted an expert in this matter, I … declare that the alleged apparitions and locations … are not supernatural in origin.” Lennon’s decree states he “forbid members of the clergy of any ecclesiastical jurisdiction” to celebrate the sacraments on the site of Holy Love Ministries.

I admonish the faithful of the Diocese of Cleveland to cease gathering for any religious, liturgical, spiritual or devotional purpose on the site of Holy Love Ministries and declare that the Confraternity of the United Hearts of Jesus and Mary is not an approved association of the Christian faithful in the Diocese of Cleveland and may not legitimately use the name “Catholic” or represent itself as a Catholic group.”

After Thomas challenged my article, I wrote to Fr. Gary Yanus, Judicial Vicar Diocese of Cleveland, since Bishop Lennon was recovering from surgery.  I showed him Thomas’ email and explained my use of the word condemned.

Here is what he said:

 In his decree of November 11, 2009 Bishop Lennon made it clear that because of a number of issues it was necessary to forbid priests to celebrate the sacraments at the site of the Holy Love shrine and that the faithful are admonished to “cease gathering” there.  The word condemned was not used but it is apparent that there are serious concerns regarding the authenticity of the apparitions, among other things.

The bishop has an obligation to pastor his people and protect and nourish their faith.  As the pastor of the Diocese of Cleveland his oversight certainly includes what is identified as “ecumenical” in that the faithful of the diocese cannot be encouraged or permitted to participate in any group or organization whose beliefs or practices contradict the teachings of the Church in faith and morals.

The person who wrote you quoted several canons about the rights of the faithful, but has ignored canon 223 which speaks of taking into account the common good of the Church and the obligation of ecclesiastical authority, in view of the common good, to regulate the exercise of the rights of the faithful.

Ecumenical, Not Catholic

The Journal reported that Kyle responded to Lennon’s decree by stating:

“We at Holy Love ministries are, and always have been, an ecumenical ministry. We have no affiliation with the Diocese of Cleveland. We are sorry that the bishop has taken this position. As it has always been, all people of all faiths are welcome to join us in prayer and the peace that Heaven offers at this site.”

Even before the bishop’s pronouncement, there were red flags for me. When in the history of the Catholic Church has the Blessed Mother operated outside the Church? When has Jesus rejected His own authority — that of the Catholic Church?

In 2005 an article in The Plain Dealer newspaper of Cleveland, OH reported on this ministry:

“The ministry was formed around 1986, meeting in homes of followers or a few welcoming churches. Then came a time of upheaval. Sweeney insisted that the Virgin Mary’s messages demanded that she be given a new title, one recognized by the Catholic Church, that of “Our Lady Protectress of the Faith.” The Cleveland Catholic Diocese turned down this request. And soon the lengthy messages that Sweeney dictated into a tape recorder began denouncing the Catholic Church; others commented on political details of the day. Several members of Sweeney’s small ministry became disillusioned and left.”

The organization has been at odds with the Catholic Church almost from the start. It sought approval through official channels for several years, but instead, in 1999, the Diocese of Clevland issued a statement urging extreme caution. At that point, Holy Love Ministries took an “ecumenical” approach. Yet, as an ecumenical ministry it found time and space in many of its printed materials to rail against the Church. I just don’t see the Blessed Mother doing this.

Before I wrote my original article on Holy Love, I had called and talked with someone from the ministry. I asked why the Blessed Mother would be operating outside the Church. He told me of local corruption of the priests and said, “What else could we do?”  I pointed out that Jesus would certainly have his way with his Church, so I did not believe a true apparition would be forced out of the Church. My argument did not win him over.

What’s the Point of a False Apparition?

What of the many miracles and increased devotion so many experienced at apparitions site not approved by the Church? One person wrote and said her fallen-away Catholic friend that once ridiculed the site became a believer. Someone said that such compelling evidence of positive fruits proves this is from God. No, it does not. That is why we have the Church, so that what looks good on the surface doesn’t lead us astray.

The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, always looks below the surface because all that glitters isn’t gold and regardless of how many people visit or how many statues are erected or rosaries said, it does not constitute proof in the Church’s judgment.  “Fruits” is more relative to the interior life of virtue, as St. Teresa of Avila teaches in her The Interior Castle (Sixth Mansion).  Declaring the Church to be wrong/corrupt and going off in rants about it certainly conflicts with being virtuous.

Furthermore, another consideration on alleged “good fruits” is what people bring to a place.  People pray and love God and God answers prayers. This is not to be confused with graces originating from a supernatural occurrence (such as purported apparitions). Too often, if an alleged apparition is condemned people feel betrayed and give up on God and the Church.  Disappointment leads them to reject Church authority thinking that they are right and the Church is wrong.

As author Dan Burke warns, we have blind spots when it comes to ourselves.  In his new book, Navigating the Interior Life: Spiritual Direction and the Journey to God Burke strongly recommends finding a good spiritual director to avoid getting misled and straying from Church teaching and authority. He says that it is our blind spots that harbor spiritual attacks and reminds us of Scripture’s warning:  “Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in faith” (1 Pet. 5:8-9).

In an article on Apparitions/Private Revelations the EWTN.com website Colin B. Donovan, STL explained that the first responsibility of the faithful is to remain established in the faith, in the sacraments and in communion with the Pope and bishops. “Any Catholic who gives their primary attention to alleged private revelation at the expense of Sacred Scripture, the teaching of the Church (especially the Catechism), sacramental practice, prayer and fidelity to Church authority is off course.”

He warned, “The running after spiritual phenomena, such as alleged revelations, is condemned by St. John of the Cross as spiritual avarice. This means that pious souls who would be repulsed by crude materialistic greed think nothing of being greedy to know revelations and prophecies. An exclusive, or even a predominant attention to these matters (especially apocalyptic ones), cannot help but produce an unbalanced spirituality.”

Donovan pointed out that when the Church warns against an apparition and a person believes more in the apparition and rejects Church authority, the devil succeeded in his goal.  For without charity and unity with the Church, there can be no salvation for Catholics.  At Holy Love, just being outside Church authority is warning enough for me.

_______________________

My second article  (originally published 11/20/2009): Proclamation on Holy Love Ministries Will Test Hearts and Obedience

Finally, the Church has spoken authoritatively on Holy Love Ministries and its 83-acre site of Maranatha Spring and Shrine in Ohio. Despite all the usual Catholic trappings — chapel, statues, rosaries and religious bookstore, not to mention the throngs from across the country and globe — the purported visions by Maureen Sweeney-Kyle have been condemned. Bishop Richard Lennon, head of the Cleveland Catholic Diocese, has issued a decree to clergy and laity of the diocese that Holy Love Ministries of Lorain County is officially off limits.

According to The Morning Journal newspaper of Ohio, Bishop Lennon’s decree was issued Nov. 11, 2009:

“Having been directed by the Holy See (in Rome) to act definitively in the matter of the alleged apparitions … and having reviewed the theological content of the alleged apparitions to Maureen Sweeney-Kyle and having consulted an expert in this matter, I … declare that the alleged apparitions and locations … are not supernatural in origin.” Lennon’s decree states he “forbid members of the clergy of any ecclesiastical jurisdiction” to celebrate the sacraments on the site of Holy Love Ministries.

“I admonish the faithful of the Diocese of Cleveland to cease gathering for any religious, liturgical, spiritual or devotional purpose on the site of Holy Love Ministries and declare that the Confraternity of the United Hearts of Jesus and Mary is not an approved association of the Christian faithful in the Diocese of Cleveland and may not legitimately use the name “Catholic” or represent itself as a Catholic group,” Lennon said in his decree.

Rogue Apparitions

People have been going to this shrine since the early 1990‘s, drawn by founder Sweeney-Kyle’s claim that Jesus and the Blessed Virgin Mary and a host of saints are appearing to her with messages. On the surface, everything about the site appears to be Catholic, but they are not Catholic. They say so themselves. Therefore, this official proclamation by the Bishop will be of little regard to Sweeny-Kyle, or her husband Don Kyle, the director of Holy Love Ministries.

The Journal reported that Kyle responded to Lennon’s decree by stating:

“We at Holy Love ministries are, and always have been, an ecumenical ministry. We have no affiliation with the Diocese of Cleveland. We are sorry that the bishop has taken this position. As it has always been, all people of all faiths are welcome to join us in prayer and the peace that Heaven offers at this site.”

This, fellow Catholics, should have been the red flag that immediately exposed the apparitions long before an official proclamation. When in the history of the Catholic Church have approved apparitions consisted of a Blessed Mother going freestyle outside the Church? When has Jesus rejected His own authority — that of the Catholic Church? The final Church proclamation comes as no surprise.

In 2005 an article in The Plain Dealer newspaper of Cleveland, OH reported on this ministry and its many suspicious claims:

“The ministry was formed around 1986, meeting in homes of followers or a few welcoming churches. Then came a time of upheaval. Sweeney insisted that the Virgin Mary’s messages demanded that she be given a new title, one recognized by the Catholic Church, that of “Our Lady Protectress of the Faith.” The Cleveland Catholic Diocese turned down this request. And soon the lengthy messages that Sweeney dictated into a tape recorder began denouncing the Catholic Church; others commented on political details of the day. Several members of Sweeney’s small ministry became disillusioned and left.”

The ministry changed locations and names several times and Sweeney-Kyle even changed husbands, divorcing and then remarrying two years later. The organization has been at odds with the Catholic Church almost from the start. It sought approval through official channels for several years, but instead, in 1999, the Catholic diocese issued a statement urging extreme caution. At that point, Holy Love Ministries took an “ecumenical” approach. Yet, as an ecumenical ministry it found time and space in many of its printed materials to rail against the Church. Would Jesus and His Blessed Mother and the saints choose Sweeney-Kyle to give the Catholic Church a tongue-lashing? No way.

Obedience or Defection?

The question now is, will those that were enthralled with this Shrine, accept Church authority or continue to follow a ministry that has officially been condemned?

I myself have visited a couple apparition sites that proved to be false. I understand this sort of devotion although I’m much more cautious these days. Yet, if everyone had awaited an official pronouncement from the Church, the 60,000 people that witnessed the Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, Portugal would have stayed home that day. Nor would there have been the initial miracles to report at Lourdes, France if people did not flock to the miraculous spring. (Oh, and by the way, Holy Love Ministries has one of those miraculous springs. They had them at a couple of their locations.)

It’s not wrong to go to a site where purported apparitions are occurring. Catholics must keep their heads on straight and not wander from Church teachings, but praying at an apparition site is not wrong.

However, once the Church has condemned a site and declared it off limits to clergy and laity, it’s a different ball game. Then, it becomes a matter of obeying Catholic authority or thinking you know better. “The one who listens to you listens to me and the one who rejects you rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects the one who sent me,” Luke 10:16.

Either we accept the authority of the Church, or we reject it. Those at Holy Love Ministries have openly rejected it. The question now is how will the many followers respond to the Bishop’s decree? I fear that many, enthralled by what they believe to be a miraculous site, will disregard the Church.

The Snares of the Devil

I used to wonder why the devil would have a hand in false apparitions when they inspired so many faithful Catholics to increase their prayer life and devotion to God and the Blessed Mother. What would the devil get out of the deal? This, my friends, is what he gets out of it: There will be a number of people who believed they were healed or their faith brought to life through Holy Love Ministries that, like a rebellious adolescents, will respond, “We don’t have to listen to the Church .”

Consider the options the devil has available to trap faithful Catholics? Such people will not be attracted to obvious evil. So, instead, the devil uses a Catholic facade to lure them in. Then, when God’s authority on earth — the Church — speaks against the fraud, a number of otherwise good Catholics get caught in the trap.

In November of 2006, I wrote an article exposing the Holy Love site (reproduced below). After an angry backlash of emails telling me how wrong I was, I promised never to write about alleged apparitions again. In addition, there are a number of followers in the area where I live who were irritated by my observations. My life is stressful enough without stirring up such pots, I reasoned. I am proving, however, that we should never say never. After the Bishop’s decree, I felt compelled to appeal to all Holy Love followers, to accept the fact that the Church has the authority to condemn this site. Jesus told us that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church and he promised to send the Paraclete to keep the Church free from error.

“If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 18: 17-18).

“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth” (John 16:12-13).

If Jesus were giving messages on “all truth” to individuals, the result would not be thousands of denominations going in different directions. He speaks through His Church. The Church has spoken on Holy Love Ministries.

What of the many miracles and increased devotion so many experienced at the site? I did not save all the impassioned emails I received three years ago, but I did find similar comments on a site discussing Holy Love. One woman credited her father’s conversion from a Sunday church grumbler to attending Mass and saying the rosary daily — even two years after his visit to the site. Another person said that her fallen-away Catholic friend that once ridiculed the site became a believer. Someone said that such compelling evidence of positive fruits proves this is from God. No, it does not. That is why we have the Church, so that we don’t get led astray by what looks good on the surface.

The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, always looks below the surface because all that glitters isn’t gold and regardless of how many people visit or how many statues are erected or rosaries said, it does not constitute proof.

I once read that people bring their own holiness to these sites. They pray and love God. God answers prayers. All this is holy in nature but is not proof of authenticity of purported apparitions. Too often, after apparitions are condemned people feel betrayed and give up on God and the Church. Then, all their gains are lost. Or, disappointment leads them to reject Church authority thinking that they are right and the Church is wrong.

Rather than allow such disappointment to derail them, they can instead take a big step closer to God. By giving their disappointment to God and continuing to walk with him, they acknowledge that his Church is bigger than a single ministry or the claims of any purported visionary.

The past prayers and experiences of Holy Love followers were very real. If people were inspired or received what they believe to be miracles at this site, then praise be to God! God can use all things for good. But now the line has been drawn. People can follow Sweeny-Kyle or the Church, but not both.
_________________________

My first article (originally published 11/6/2006): A Vision for Apparitions

Trudging along two miles of country road in Kettle River, Minnesota, I shifted the back carrier which held my three-year-old son. I was joined by 3,500 other pilgrims who had congregated to see if the Virgin Mary would appear as purported locutionist Stephen Marino had reported she would.

A Meeting with Mary?

It was Easter, 1993, and the temperature was cold enough to keep the thick layer of snow that fell the previous night from melting. With me were my husband, four young boys, and three other families who were part of our family prayer group.

It was the published messages from Marino that inspired our prayer group to form. I had heard his inspirational conversion story in which he went so far as to divorce his second wife and reconcile with his first in order to become fully obedient to God and the Church. Everything I knew about him seemed to be the real deal. And who would invent a message that the Blessed Mother would appear on a particular date and time? You would either have to be authentic and your announcement would be fulfilled or a fool. I figured that the tens of thousands of pilgrims in Fatima who witnessed the spinning of the sun and had their soaked clothing dried in an instant when the Blessed Mother appeared as predicted had less to go on than we did. I had come because if the appearance did occur I wanted to be there. If it did not, I would return home and continue to practice my faith.

At 2:00, the appointed hour, the pilgrims waited eagerly, gazing upward. The overcast sky cleared just a bit as the sun showed itself through a thin film of clouds. We all waited and watched, thinking that surely this was the prelude. Then the clouds closed over the sun. Nothing more happened. It was a “no show” for the Blessed Mother. Interesting enough, it was also a “no show” for Marino. His friend and business partner, whose farm property held a large cross and the gathering, reported that Steve and visionaries throughout the world had been called by the Blessed Mother to go to Medjugorje. Weird.

It takes awhile to digest such a fraud. Initially, not all were ready to condemn Marino. If the messages drew people closer to Christ and His Blessed Mother, how could they be false? Would the devil be behind the formation of prayer groups? It did not make sense. How could all these good fruits not be from God? Were such seers themselves duped, and heard or saw messages that were really not from God? Did they suffer from mental illness and imagine it all? Or were they frauds who gave only an outward appearance of religious devotion?

In Marino’s case, I later learned that he got involved in a worldwide movement built around Medjugorje and tried to use that connection to make Kettle River a major Marian shrine. Marino eventually published more than 300 of the messages, dated from March 1991 to January 1992. He and a partner formed a corporation and bought hundreds of acres of land through donations. In March 1992, the Duluth Diocese investigated, and ultimately advised Catholics to stay away.

After the fateful Easter, the cross was removed from the field and Marino withdrew a request to build a 10,000-seat chapel and a seven-story, cross-shaped hotel. He pledged to obey a church directive to dissolve the corporation.

The Wedge of Division

Recently some friends went on a pilgrimage from North Dakota to Ohio to visit the Holy Love Ministries site where messages and apparitions to a housewife have been reported to be occurring for twenty years. They claim numerous miracles are occurring and special blessings are bestowed on all who come. And the pilgrims are indeed coming even from other countries. The shrine is on one hundred-plus acres of land, adorned with beautiful statues of Mary, Jesus and many of the saints.

Since it’s relatively close to where one of my sisters lives, I mentioned the place to her. She investigated and learned that there were enough red flags concerning these messages that it would not be prudent to visit. Even though the messages, purportedly from Jesus and Mary, encourage Catholic devotions, they have declared that this ministry is ecumenical and therefore, does not have to answer to Catholic authority.

The bishop’s office of the diocese of Cleveland cautions anyone considering donations to the center. The organization has no approval or support from the Catholic diocese. A meeting with Holy Love representatives made it clear that the ministry will not subject themselves to the Catholic Church.

When I spoke with people from the diocese, I learned that some things reported on the Holy Love website are misrepresented and subtly drive a wedge between followers and the bishop. Alongside all the Catholic devotions and talk of love, messages brim with dire warnings that computer chips will control people’s minds in the future and certain constellations are now taking unforeseen paths.

In the end, how is a person to discern what is true and what is not? How could false messages result in so many good fruits, such as to increase prayers and devotion to God, Mary and the saints?

Mary Never Undermines the Church

I think it is important to note that in all Marian apparitions ultimately approved, Mary never undermined Church authority and always told visionaries to obey. If there was initial skepticism and resistance, God ultimately overcame it. He has a way with His Church. Never was a true visionary told he or she did not have to obey Catholic authority. After all, if Jesus died for His Church, would He now send His Mother work around it?

I know from experience that it’s easy to look only at the surface and miss obvious problems. An excellent website in which a Catholic theologian evaluates Marian apparitions is catholicplanet.com/apparitions. After reading through the explanations of why certain messages must be regarded as false, it helps readers to be more discerning.

In the end, the type of people who go to apparition sites are not necessarily naïve or foolish. (Of course I guess I’m defending myself here, too.) Oh, there are always some of those, but for the most part, people are motivated by their love of God and their desire to experience Him in their lives to a greater degree. The idea of being privy to messages from heaven can be intoxicating and raise one’s spirits even closer to heaven. Those in love with God naturally crave closeness to Him. To think that messages are being sent by Him or the Blessed Mother, inspires them with the notion that they can get even closer by taking the messages to heart, visiting the shrines and getting near the visionaries. It is really the same motivation of those who visit approved shrines.

Being part of a sea of people, all praying the rosary and loving God and His mother, is uplifting to say the least. These are people willing to travel great distances and do whatever else it takes to bask in love and graces from heaven. But there is a dark side to acting on messages that Church authority warns against. It can get the faithful off track. Once they are off course, the messages can take over and Catholic priests and bishops may even be seen as the enemy for rejecting or ignoring the messages. If the time comes when people realize the messages are false, there is a risk that they will feel duped by religion and turn away entirely.

In the end, we have all we need right at home. At Holy Love Ministries, it is reported that Jesus sometimes comes with Mary during her apparitions. Every Catholic already can be in the presence of God before the tabernacle at their church and even receive Him in Holy Communion.

Marian apparitions and devotions have played a large part in my own faith development. I would have loved to have witnessed something like the pilgrims at Fatima did, but really, I do not need it. Instead of spending money and time on sites of questionable authenticity, I realize now that the best way to act radically for Christ is to receive Him every day at Mass and then to live His gospel message. In the end, we really will get to see both Him and His mother. But until then, we just have to be patient.


Patti Maguire Armstrong and her husband have ten children. She is an award-winning author and was managing editor and co-author of Ascension Press’s Amazing Grace Series. Her newest books are: Big Hearted: Inspiring Stories from Everyday Families, a collection of stories to inspire family love, and Dear God, I Don't Get It and the sequel, Dear God, You Can't Be Serious, children's fiction that feeds the soul through a fun and exciting story. FacebookFamily website. Her blogTwitter. Read more: http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/author/patti-maguire-armstrong#ixzz2x8GW9PlN


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  • Kathy

    I find this article sad. I have been to the Holy Love site and love it and feel peace there. They have the beautiful Rosary of the unborn. The devil hates the rosary and would never promote it. Mother Mary wants us to pray it and a baby can be saved on every bead if you pray from the heart and ask. The fruits will show that this is from heaven and the good that comes out of it will yes, indeed, “SAVE SOULS!” We need all the help we can get now and may the author of this sad
    article get the help needed to stop trying to “Condemn” holy places and holy people. Kathy from Iowa

    • Dave

      Hate to disagree, but the Devil would indeed promote the Rosary if it gains him more than it loses him. In this case, he has now gotten some devout Catholics to separate themselves by the Church by one degree – that of disobedience. It is the biggest of red flags when a “visionary” is disobedient to the disciplinary actions of the Church. The saints took the opposite road.

      • Faustina

        I have been at HOLY LOVE, about 18 times since 2009 and its another true gift from God. I will encourage people to go. This place made me a better Catholic and its saving souls. We pray at HOLY LOVE. God loves prayers and wants us to love Him back. Blessed Mother is helping her children to return to God before its too late. People these days don’t know the difference between good and evil anymore. This site is a refuge of HOLY LOVE for us. What Bishop would stop Christians from praying the Rosary, Chaplet of Divine Mercy and many Holy prayers there, in pouring rain, sleet, thunderstorms, frigid, & hot temperature together? Holy Love did not disobey the Bishop’s letter. They do not have confessions or Mass on the property, as requested by the Bishop. Yes we should be careful and search for the truth. Go and find out the truth for yourselves. The devil wants to stop Christians from going there, because it is saving souls and bringing people back to the Catholic Church. Why are Priests, Bishops, Arch Bishops, Cardinals, Nuns, Brothers, Christians, children, etc. FORBIDDEN to go to HOLY LOVE MINISTRY’s to receive the many Blessings and Graces themselves? Why can’t they find out for themselves? Go and pray there, it is not a sin.

    • mtrv

      Yes, I, too am saddened that Patti wrote this article. The sole purpose of Holy Love is to bring people closer to God, but all she does is find fault. Not once did she mention the messages. If only she would medidate on the messages. I thought I read that the Bishop of Cleveland also closed about 50 churches?

      • LizEst

        I have, in fact, looked at the messages and there is much false and questionable material contained in them. The six-chambered heart clinched it for me! In Scripture, Jesus tells us that the Father and Him are one. Only one person of the Trinity has a human nature, which gives Him an actual heart. Any basic science course that teaches something of the human anatomy teaches that the human heart has four chambers not six.

        Disobedience to Church authority is one of the premier hallmarks of a false vision or apparition (there are others such as self-promotion, pride and profitting). “Doctrinal fidelity as a mark of authenticity is sometimes an obvious sign, sometimes not so obvious. Flat contradiction of magisterial teaching is a clear indicator of inauthenticity, for the Holy Spirit does not lead the individual to reject the teaching of the very leaders he himself has established to protect the truth (Acts 20:28). While the genuine theologian attempts to develop and complement and unfold biblical and ecclesial teaching, he does not reject it. Scripture could not be more clear (“Authenticity – A Biblical Theology of Discernment” by Thomas Dubay, S.M., Ignatius Press 1997). It is prideful to set oneself up over Church authority. We must not do so. We are not God.

        The devil can quote Scripture and encourage people to pray as it suits his larger purpose. Demons can project pretty realistic looking reproductions of the BVM, Jesus and the saints. Read all about it in “The Rite – The Making of a Modern Exorcist” by Matt Baglio. From the book: “…the demon is always actively watching people and he gets pleasure when he see that they are not faithful to God and, as a result, take his side…He wants humankind to rebel against God as well, and this is the one ‘accusation’ that he can level against an individual at the Last Judgment that has the most weight” (in Chapter 14, Windows to the Soul).

        And, yes, Cleveland’s Bishop Lennon closed a number of churches and had to reverse some/all. This was an administrative action, which does not take away from his authority (and his mission to preach, teach and sanctify) to issue a pronouncement on the authenticity of visions/apparitions. Just knowing of the disobedience by those who promote and follow “Holy Love Ministries” is enough to warn off truly faithful Catholics. Saint Padre Pio was forbidden to celebrate Mass with the faithful for many, many years. Unlike “Holy Love Ministries,” he was faithful and obeyed.

        • mtrv

          There are many in Church authority who are disobedient to the teachings of the Catholic faith and to the Pope. There are abuses of power and authority. Not all are ‘holy’. Jesus warns us in the Bible, woe to them who follow but worse for that person who leads them to perdition. You say that Disobedience to Church authority is one of the premier hallmarks of a false vision, etc….. when there are those in Church Authority themselves that are disobedient to the Pope and the Magisterium. There are priests, bishops even Cardinals including nuns who promote abortion. Bishop Lennon closed those churches without further study and doing a financial analysis, that the Vatican had to interfere. I’m glad the Vatican is taking an active role. Bishop Lenon might have a hidden agenda. Remember, Holy Love is an ecumenical place, not Catholic. Didn’t Jesus also loved the gentiles? Likewise, the Bishop who forbade St. Padre Pio from seeing people and confined him like a criminal and took away his faculties. Why?. That bishop also prevented a lot of people from being saved. I am obedient to God first and am fully aware of being discerning. Jesus said to test the spirits, but not all are bad. I doubt the devil will give praise to Jesus as a greeting or promote love in hearts or obey the 10 Commandments. A lot of Saints also give teachings. Speaking of which, weren’t you just commenting on being judgmental since people don’t know what is in their hearts? Nobody claims to be gods here. When we use are judgment, our God given intellect, to discern, and act on it, we are not being gods.
          Don’t get caught up in the politics. There is no self-promotion, pride or profiting. Any profit from the sale of the Rosary of the unborn is to fund a shelter for unwed mothers. Most of the messages are even similar to Medjugorje. But maybe that you are also skeptical.

          • LizEst

            Demons can do a pretty good job of imitating the good and the holy. The stronger devils can even pronounce holy names such as Jesus and Mary and encourage devotions in order to later twist them to suit their purpose. They have a great knowledge of theology. (See Baglio’s book for all the stuff they can and cannot do). If “Holy Love Ministries” is real, it will submit to Church authority and ultimately the Lord will be vindicate it.

            Yes, the Church is made of sinners (of which I am one) and saints. Yes, there are those within Church structure that do not follow Church teaching. They were also there in Christ’s day. He told his followers to do as they say but not as they do. In others words, follow their teaching, don’t emulate their actions. Church doctrine and Church teaching is solid. We cannot go wrong following it. We can go wrong following false phenomena and doctrine. Many have been fooled in the past, as what happened in the case of Sister Magdalena of the Cross, who made a pact with the devil for 40 years, convincing and fooling many, including higher Church officials, royals and dignitaries: http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/12/sister-magdalena-of-cross-nun-who-made.html

            The politics of Cleveland’s diocese is not my concern. Just like many others, I’m aware of what has been in the media…and I’ve read the letters between Bishop Lennon and “Holy Love Ministries” as well. The Bishop has a right, a duty in fact, to oversee anything Catholic within his diocese. And, last time I checked, the rosary is a Catholic devotion. Yes, all are encouraged to pray it and I know an Episcopalian minister who used to pray it, to her credit; but, it is a Catholic prayer. The bishop has a responsibility for all Catholics of his diocese and any who travel to and through his diocese per Canon Law. He would be remiss if he didn’t pronounce on “Holy Love Ministries” activity.

            One more thing…buyer beware! Catholicism never changes its dogma, never changes what it believes and teaches for the sake of ecumenism. The fullness of Truth is found within the Catholic Church, which Jesus founded upon the rock of Peter… upon it the gates of hell will never prevail.

          • mtrv

            I find no fault in the messages.

          • LizEst

            How many chambers are there in the human heart?

          • http://www.facebook.com/lizdasilva2000 Liz DaSilva

            GOD’s revelations strengthen humility, obedience, patience and conformity to His Holy Will. The Devil’s revelations beget pride, presumption and disobedience to GOD’s Church on earth. A sure sign of a demonically-inspired seer is their seeking self-profit, glory and power over GOD’s.

            Piety, prayer and good works are not lone criteria for authenticating heavenly revelations. Satan will tolerate good to ultimately sew evil. A sign of true love for GOD is bearing long-lasting fruits and living orthodox, obedient lives respectful to all, especially those in authority.

            From The Imitation of Christ (Book 3, Pg 160):

          • LizEst

            Thanks for that Liz. Re: your reference to The Imitation of Christ. The Book Club at Roman Catholic Spiritual Direction: (http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2012/12/04/csd-book-club-announcing-our-next-book-3/comment-page-1#comment-12621) will begin reading that very book this coming week. Please join us there, if you haven’t already. You would be an excellent addition.

            (This link is for how to join–it’s free–http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2012/06/10/spiritual-direction-book-club-how-do-i-join-it)

            Interestingly enough, “mtrv” posted on site there, too, and I also had a long discussion with him/her. I think he/she thought you were me in a previous comment on this Catholic Lane site! Ha!

          • http://www.facebook.com/lizdasilva2000 Liz DaSilva

            @LizEst I could not go on the link to join the book club it doesn’t work. I would love to, I’ve been going thru a dry spell and I think this could be the very thing I need right now, I believe I have this book I just need to find it. Can you repost the link?

            Thanks

          • LizEst

            Hi Liz – Sorry about that. I just saw that and fixed it but will repost here for you.

            To join, go here: http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2012/06/10/spiritual-direction-book-club-how-do-i-join-it%29

            And, to look at the first post which gives the reading assignment, go here: http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2012/12/04/csd-book-club-announcing-our-next-book-3/comment-page-1#comment-12630

            Hope that helps. See you there! God bless you, Liz!
            ps. Love your name!!!!!!

          • http://www.facebook.com/lizdasilva2000 Liz DaSilva

            And what did Padre Pio do when the Bishop ordered him to stop? He obeyed the Bishop because he knew that obedience to his Bishop and the magisterium are required by God. I never heard of the holy love ministry but it’s obvious that they don’t teach the faithful correctly since everyone that is defending them is mainly using emotions rather than reason. Any of the saints when they were ordered by their superiours to do something or not do it, they obeyed, obedience is a mark of holiness.

          • mtrv

            St. Padre Pio was a priest. He had no choice. But obviously, his Bishop did not have good intentions. He stopped Padre Pio from performing his priestly duties, healing the sick, administering to the needy, etc.
            My loyalty and obedience is to God first. What happens if one day your Bishop told his diocesan priests that they are forbidden to celebrate mass from now on? Would you still go to mass if the celebrant is a woman priest? I don’t think God will hold it against me if I don’t.
            I don’t claim to be holy and without sin. And I agree that the Church, Christ Himself, never changes. When God told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple, don’t eat the apple, even if just an apple. Gay couples can’t get married in church. God chose 12 men as disciples – later to become priests. If He wanted women priests, then wouldn’t Mother Mary be the first priestess? It is what it is. Obedience. To commit Mortal sin, we enumerated those 3 things has to be present. And they are, so they have mortal sin in their body and soul. I don’t judge them or point fingers, but it is what it is. We try to live holy lives and follow God’s Will. It’s hard and very challenging. The Holy Love messages, as well as, the messages from Medjugorje helps us a lot.
            I still have to read a message from Holy Love that is against church teaching. I don’t use my emotions to discern. I know my Catholic faith.

        • denis renaud

          Just so you don’t go on misinformed the United Hearts would actually have 8 chambers.

          • LizEst

            Now you’re obfuscating the issue. The so-called Jesus of these so-called apparitions claims to have a six-chambered heart, despite the fact that there are only four chambers in the human heart. In combination with Mary’s heart that would make ten chambers. If you say the United Hearts have eight chambers, then you have just proved that the so-called apparitions are false because you have negated the claim of the so-called Jesus that his heart has six chambers.

          • denis renaud

            You obviously haven’t read the messages. Here is the quote “I have come to explain to you the Sixth Chamber. It is the Heart of the Eternal Father. It embraces all the other Chambers of Our United Hearts.” He is talking about the symbolic sixth chamber of the United Hearts. If you would actually read the messages your opinions would be more informed.

          • LizEst

            That’s even funnier! The math simply doesn’t add up! …and this is a later explanation for something that doesn’t logically make sense to begin with. God bless you denis. Your heart is in the right place but it is seriously misguided. I will say a prayer for you.

          • denis renaud

            I guess we had different math teachers… 1 human heart = 4 chambers. 2 human hearts = 8 possible chambers. As I said if you would actually read the messages a lot of your confusion would be cleared up. Thank you for the prayers. I will pray for you also.

          • LizEst

            You’re welcome! And, thank you, denis. I can use all the prayers I can get. I prayed for you at Mass this morning as well.

  • Sebastian

    38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

  • Sebastian

    ACTS 5:38-39

  • http://www.facebook.com/barb.westerman.3 Barb Westerman

    I live less than one mile from where Maureen Kyle-Sweeney was previously receiving “messages and visits” from heaven. This was in the home on Broadview Rd. Seven Hills, Oh. Maureen claimed that she was told that there was “miraculous water” appearing in the back yard of this residence. This is Not true. I have seen it myself and I know for a fact that her friends put in the piping for the water to draw people there. Then there’s the fact that for over two years after Maureen left this site, the house went up for sale and there was a Protestant organization who was there for some time. Afterwards, the house did sell. So my questions to all you believers of this Holy Love Ministry…what happened to the “miraculous spring of water” that was claimed to be on said premise? Did it automatically disappear? Since Holy Love moved to their latest location in Elyria, Oh. Holy Love has changed their name numerous times. And anywhere the Heaven has touched down onto a privileged soul, you will find that either the home or place where they continued to ‘TRULY’ appear have never been sold! It would be considered as ‘sacred’ ground. But, unfortunately many who are seeking for something in life to fill a void they may have, want to be able to fill this void by going to such places as the above. This is sad, especially when Catholics have Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament where they visit Him. And why not form prayer groups also in your homes, there is certainly much to pray for..our families, our leadership, our priests and clergy, our Pope…. May Our Good God Bless All Those Who Read This and may their eyes and minds be opened. Peace to all.

  • http://www.facebook.com/barb.westerman.3 Barb Westerman

    Correction, should be “Where Maureen ‘Claimed’ she was receiving messages and apparitions”

  • Elizabeth

    Thank you for this article on Holy Love. I’ve not read any recent posts about it anywhere since shortly after the Bishop’s condemnation of the place. I’ve never been there; no reason to. Simply reading the endless so-called messages on their website, direct from the Blessed Virgin, Jesus, and a host of saints was enough to alert the little internal red flags. Good grief ~ are you kidding me?

    It’s indicative of the state of today’s Church, today’s Catholics, that so many are taken in by this drivel. I hesitate to call it ‘from the devil’ only because I think it’s equally possible, or even probable, that it’s simple a case of either an emotionally imbalanced woman (Sweeney) or a shrewd woman seeking notoriety and a very comfortable lifestyle.

    It concerns me in a personal way because I know several friends who are what I’d call serious Catholics, but are seriously attached to this place, almost in a cult-like fashion. I pray the Lord (and the Blessed Virgin) remove the scales from their eyes before it’s too late. Lord have mercy.

  • Matt C. Abbott

    Good article, Patti.

  • Totus tuus

    Our own V2 church is ‘ecumenical’ now, where our popes are telling us that every form of religion has the truth within it, and they kiss korans, participate in voodoo, and etc., and even protestants agree that our new church is more ‘protestant’ than they are. If we cannot rely on ancient doctrines to discern what is true or false in apparitions, (and we cannot) then we have to discern the best we can in other ways. There are genuine miracles from Holy Love, and I’ve had very powerful miracles there, With assistance from very conservative priests AND an exorcist,, these things proved to be genuine and not diabolical. Say what you will, the Church has historically given mystics a very hard time, those who are now known as saints, and sites of miracles. If this is of God, it won’t go away, as we are told in scripture.

    • Dave

      I think you are proving the point. If you are a fruit of “Holy Love” and are now slamming the Popes, I rest my point. Sure, the Church can be overly hard on mystics at times, but the authentic ones OBEYED anyway.

      • Elizabeth

        Totus tuus: You indeed are proving the point! Maybe you should go back and re-read.

  • Sal

    Thank you for this article and I hope you and others continue to publicize this. I know of persons who were involved with and then kicked out of the organization after their free service was no longer needed or their money ran out.

  • pat

    As much as I do not care for Bishop Lennon ( I am from Boston), the fact that since these apparitions she has divorced and remarried ( have not heard about any annulment) and now goes against this Bishop, is a sure sign to stay away from this ministry. It may have started out valid ( I cannot think the devil would inspire her to make teardrop Rosary beads with a little fetus inside to pray against abortion) I love those Rosary beads (got them from some of the Rosary ladies at Church) and I think they are legit inspired. Nevertheless, in my mind she has gone astray and it will get worse. It seems to me that she needed a Spiritual director. Did she have one?That is the only way, plus obedience to the Church . The devil is too cunning to take on by oneself.

    • LizEst

      Thanks for this information. You make some good points. I did not know about the divorce and remarriage.

      As to the annulment, it is none of our business whether or not she got a declaration of nullity, a declaration of invalidity or whatever. No canon lawyer worth their salt would disclose that to anyone who did not have a need to know. If she remarried in the Church, then she would have had to have the necessary paperwork done, simple as that!

  • Steve

    Patti

    I’ve studied and practiced the Holy Love messages for over 25 years, and can assure you the apparitions there are authentic. One of my former theology professors at Notre Dame also endorses the messages. Bishop Lennon certainly is not infallible given the Vatican’s reversal of his improper practice of closing certain parishes. Moreover, the people at the site have not taken a vow of obedience to the Bishop, thus they are obliged to follow their conscience. I would also refer you to a little known text entitled, “Faith is greater than obedience,” by Fr. Albert Drexel to help you comprehend this idea. Finally, by end of 2014, the world will know the truth about a great many things and will recognize that the Holy Love apparitions are in fact authentic. Just wait and you will see….

    • Elizabeth

      Oh my. You’re actually using a theology professor at Notre Dame as an endorsement of an apparition site that has been condemned by a Bishop of the Catholic Church? Do you hear yourself? The “little known text” you refer to is perhaps little known because it is nothing short of heresy. It’s nothing more than one man’s account of his own personal private revelations from Jesus. And you’re taking that over and above a Bishop of the Church? Your final 2 sentences sent a chill up my spine. I will pray for you, my dear. You need it.

      • 3221

        Madame, please state SPECIFICALLY the heresy at HLM. It is also best to keep the sarcastic tone to yourself, all right?

        • Mary Kochan

          I know this was not addressed to me, but I will point out that it is not necessary that there even be a heresy at HLM; all that is necessary for the condemnation is for there to be a supernatural claim and for the bishop to find the claim to be in error. The bishop has said it is not from God.

          • Kevin Symonds

            Disobedience is not heresy, yet HLM tries to get out from the obedience owed the Bishop of Cleveland to propagate its alleged messages. In other words, alleged messages are prized more highly than the truth of the Gospel, “He who hears you hears Me” and that it is through the Church we discern the spirits, not outside of it.

            The above alone constitutes sufficient evidence for the “constat de non supernaturalitate” judgment of Bishop Lennon.

          • 3221

            We ‘hear’ the Church when we follow Her official pronouncements. The official pronouncement we have had about HLM is a ‘warning’ which under obedience we are not obligated to follow. The Church is very clear in her language and Bishop Lennon went as far as he could go without being out of line canonically.

          • 3221

            HLM gets out of jurisdiction of corrupt bishops by becoming ecumenical. I would like to know where Bishop Lennon stands on abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, women priests etc. I just read in the Summa Theologica that disobedience is right when a church authority is teaching heresy. I am wondering whether bishop Lennon is an orthodox bishop or not. I do not know him. If he is silent on the issues mentioned above this would explain his aversion to HLM which teaches the Catholic Faith in its traditional wholeness. At any rate, when a bishop disapproves of an appartition and warns his flock, they are free to heed the warning or leave it. This blind stupidity that ‘just obeying the bishop–corrupt or not–can lead one to getting swallowed by the wolves–who today are often in sheep’s clothes. I mention no names.

          • Harry Flynn

            3221, back up and read what you just wrote. You admitted you do not know where Lennon stands on those issues and yet you insinuate he is a corrupt bishop and thus HLM has the “right” to get out of his jurisdiction.

            There is a saying that I think applies to your situation and please know it saddens me to say this, but say it I will:

            “Never argue with an idiot. He will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.”

          • Elizabeth

            Ditto to that, Harry. Sad but true. I’m officially done (I think) discussing this with 3221. It’s pointless and sad.

          • 3221

            What is pointless and sad, Elizabeth? That I do not accept your derision of HLM?

          • 3221

            I am so sorry you feel the need to be insulting. I am a clear writer. If I believed Bishop Lennon is a ‘corrupt bishop’ I would have said so. I am asking about his stands on all things Catholic. I will say that HLM has saved themselves much wrangling by becoming ecumenical. Remember what Joan of Arc went through with bishops.

          • 3221

            I stand corrected. Above I did state that Bishop Lennon was corrupt. I meant to speak more generally. I do not know him.

          • Harry Flynn

            and now you cannot even keep your own argument in order.

            I call upon every poster (and future ones as well) to ignore 3221. He/She obviously doesn’t get the point.

          • 3221

            Let’s be specific Harry. Give me examples of WHERE I am not ‘keeping my argument in order’. My argument has been the most consistent of anyone in this discussion. So, since you cannot best me in this argument, your answer now is to encourage all to ignore me. The problem is that I get the point only too well.

          • Elizabeth

            Agreed!

          • LizEst

            Thanks Harry.

          • Harry Flynn

            3221, you are right. You are a clear writer: you line of questioning tells the whole world, clearly, that you are digging for dirt–some scandal to justify your disobedience.

            Again, go back to your synagogue of satan.

          • 3221

            I am a clear writer–much more so than many on this blog who have taken it upon themselves to malign something they give clear evidence of being afraid of and need to bash. I am not ‘digging for dirt’. I do not need to. The corruption within the Church is so evident for all to see. The full teachings of the our beautiful Faith are so often NOT being taught at all. This is why we have a Church where only 20% or so believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. No,Harry, I do not need to ‘dig for dirt’, the dirt is obvious for all to see.

          • lisa anthony

            and I quote:”no other messages are needed because our message envelops all the other messages”
            the ministry here is “unprecedented” mother mary says that holy love is one of her’favorite places on earth!”
            this shows elitism used to raise funds and keeping people devoted to their cause–i have personal experience– i believe this is a cult and the price of the rosaries should convince you~~~
            Yes, they will say,”We are being persecuted till the end.”
            I have a close friend who is a member of this organization(it’s not a catholic site and priests are not allowed to say mass by the bishop.) her eyes are so blinded and all I can do is pray and mention it now and then
            oh yea, she’s spent thousands of dollars flying up there and one of her friends said:”why doesn’t God pick me to be the visionary?” what is the fruit of this ministry?

          • 3221

            But HLM was NOT condemned nor could it be canonically, unless there were something against faith or morals of the Catholic Church. Your statement is wrong if you are asserting that if a bishop–even the bishop of jurisdiction– claims that nothing supernatural is happening it equals a condemnation. You are all wet canonically on that one.

          • Mary Kochan

            That is exactly what it equals. That is exactly what it is. It is a definitive judgement that HLM is a false apparition. It may be coming from an unhinged or manipulative person, or it may be coming from the demons, or it may be coming from some combination of them both. But it is NOT coming from God. Period. It is NOT from God.

          • 3221

            Mary you are so mixed up. You need a course in canon law.

          • Mary Kochan

            I don’t need canon law to tell me that “not supernatural” means not from God… and neither do you.

          • 3221

            This is the personal judgement of one bishop,and so he warns (read gently urges. Check the dictionary) people not to go to HLM. it is NOT CONDEMNATION,NOR DOES IT FORBID persons to go there. His judgement is NOT the definitive Voice of the Church. Remember, BISHOPS CONDEMNED Joan of Arc. Later the DEFINITIVE Voice of the Church made her a saint. There are bishops and mystical theologians who say HLM is profound theology. What’s clear to me is that you NEED HLM to be false. Will this make you feel okay about it.? Let it go, Mary. Believe what you want, and let others believe what they want.

          • Harry Flynn

            Mary is entirely correct. Lennon condemned the claims–CONSTAT DE NON SUPERNATURALITATE–with the backing of the Holy See. There is NO reason for anyone to go to HLM now.

  • Steve

    Patti
    Why did you delete my earlier comment? Do you lack the intellectual honesty or courage to allow a free debate or are you just an activist journalist pushing an agenda?

    I’ve studied and practiced the Holy Love apparitions for 25 years and can assure you they are authentic. Bishop Lennon is not infallible and ruled in error on these apparitions. His authority to make a ruling is not in dispute, but the accuracy of his judgement is. I would point out a little known text entitled, “Faith is Greater than Obedience” by Fr. Albert Drexel, which supports the claims of the Holy Love personnel that they have the right to follow their conscience because they have not taken a vow of obedience to the Bishop. Finally, by the end of 2014 the world will know the truth of a great many things including the authenticity of the Holy Love, as well as other apparitions that are currently misjudged. Just wait an you will see…

    • Dave

      No one is denying their right to follow their conscience. Everyone must follow their conscience. But the consciences of the saints told them to obey their bishops and/or superiors when they were unfairly treated or disciplined. Jesus and Mary would never, ever, ever, EVER counsel someone to be disobedient to the legitimate Church authority. After all, He is the one who founded the Church and gave it authority. “He who hears you hears Me.”

      • Jim

        I too have had wonderful experiences at Holy Love that have brought me so much closer to God, my church and my faith. I am spreading the Rosary of the Unborn around the country because I believe in it. I come from Boston where the Church refused to be transparent with us on child sex abuse. We all know how that turned out. The fact that Bishop Lennon won’t provide me or others any concrete evidence of why he has made this decision makes me very skeptical of his decision. If he would be transparent on his reasons I would support him 100%. Can you imagine St. Paul telling the people of Corinth that they must do X without the courtesy of explaining why. I can’t and because of this I will continue to pray the Rosary, spread it, follow the messages, go to Mass, go to confession and adoration as much as I can. God warns us about judging others and I think he means it.

        • Elizabeth

          I’d say that you’re working from an incorrect understanding of the teaching authority of the Bishops. You want transparency? The Church is not a democracy; the Bishop doesn’t “owe” you an explanation. As Catholics, we are to follow what they ask of us. If Pope Benedict XVI came out tomorrow and said no Catholics are to go to Holy Love because he has deemed that it is not of supernatural origin, would you obey or would you continue to go?

          • Disgusted with Cynics

            I beg to differ with you. Bishops DO OWE the faithful ‘an explanation’ for what they say and do. We need to pray for our bishops in this country. They often are not obedient to our Holy Father and his Magisterium, They have many times misled the faithful–remember, it is the Catholic vote that re-elected Obama–and they are largely responsible for the moral confusion and defiance to Rome that plagues the United States. You are naive if you think it is loyalty to the Church to obey directives blindly from bishops who clearly are in defiance of Rome. Primacy of conscience trumps blindly following disobedient bishops. Vatican Two told us that, and the new head of the CDF has told us that failure to accept the TRUE teachings of Vatican Two is heresy. Yes, Vatican Two has been misinterpreted, but primacy of conscience is a vallid Catholic teaching. Look it up in the CCC. If the bishop told you that the Holy Eucharist is only the Body and Blood of Jesus DURING Mass, would you believe and follow that? Don’t be surprised if you hear that someday, will you?

          • Dave

            Is it possible the Bishop is wrong about Holy Love? Yes (not likely, but I am speaking theoretically here.) Are the Holy Love messages necessary for salvation? No. Will you gain fruits if you are obedient to the bishop, whether he is wrong or not? Yes. Will you gain fruit from disobedience to the bishop? Certainly not.

          • Mary Kochan

            Dave, this is just perfect. Correct, and succinct.

          • Barbara

            You are in trouble if you think that obedience to heresy is of God. Loyalty to the Church has never meant disregarding Truth. Some Catholics voted for Obama because their Bishop told them it was all right. Do you tink that pleased God?

          • Dave

            OK, so now it is heresy to declare the Holy Love apparitions to be not supernatural???

          • 3221

            Bishops have upheld heresy. The silence they are effecting when they should proclaim loudly the teachings of the Church speaks clearly of the lack of support fo the Holy Father and his magisterium. recently Pope Benedict XV1 applied pressure to the Bishops when he stated that no monies should be given to organizations not in line with Church teachings. This he did because the Catholic bishops of this countries are annually giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to leftist, pro abortion, pro homosexual groups in this country. This is defiance on the part of the bishops against Christ’s Church. If any Catholic supports this activity because ‘their bishop tells them to do so’ is in error and not obedient to Christ. Get it?

          • Dave

            True…and why should anyone obey Peter either, since He denied Christ three times? Unless Pope Benedict XVI overrules Bishop Lennon on the matter of Holy Love, we are bound to obedience.

          • 3221

            HLM is not condemned by the Church. the Church is wise enough to allow things to exist unless they prove heterodox. Stay with the issue. If you obey the heresy of unfaithful bishops, you are not being faithful to the Church.

          • Elizabeth

            What do you think Bishop Lennon’s statement said if not condemning it, even if the Church may not elect to use that particular word in these modern days? How did you read his statement? As a suggestion for you to decide for yourselves on?

            Perhaps his use of the phrase “admonish the faithful to cease gathering for any religious, liturgical, spiritual or devotional purposes” suggests something otherwise to you?

            As regarding any priests or Bishops who have been going to the site, do you suppose that Bishop Lennon’s words to them are vague and ambiguous also….”forbid members of the clergy of any ecclesiastical jurisdiction to celebrate the sacraments on the site of Holy Love Ministries”?

            One further question: Are you inferring that Bishop Lennon is a heretic? Or an unfaithful Bishop? I think you’re going to have to elaborate on those statements!

            It’s coming through loud and clear that you are so attached to this particular so-called apparition site, that you are placing it and your own judgement above Holy Mother Church, and therefore have placed your soul in danger. This is EXACTLY how Satan uses seemingly good things for his end. Don’t you see what he’s accomplishing? He is succeeding in making people such as yourself to turn away from the Church and convincing you all that YOU are the faithful ones! Good Lord, you need to fall on your knees in front of the Blessed Sacrament in a church or chapel far away from that place and pray for His grace to extricate you from the snares of the devil.

          • 3221

            If anything, HLM has brought me to a deeper understanding of the ancient truths of my Faith. It ahs deepened my loyalty to Christ and His Church. Bishop Lennon did not use the word ‘condemn’ because he could not. Condemnation is an officially canonical act and the Church has very specific guidelines for enacting it. Using the language that he did has nothing to do with modern times; it has to do with what is canonical limitations are. Many bishops DO APPROVE and are actually involved in HLM. So which bishop is correct? I am wondering why HLM bothers you so much. Leave it alone. God will bring out the truth.

          • LizEst

            What are the names of these bishops? Only three are listed on the HLM Testimonies page. Assuredly, if there were lots, HLM would have posted them. None of these letters are dated after Bishop Lennon’s 2009 Letter.

          • 3221

            Just because they are not listed does not mean they are not approving. One bishop has ‘warned’ against HLM. Three bishops have approved of it. This does not sound like a unified condemnation story, now does it?

          • LizEst

            The bishops who wrote those letters are not approving authorities for HLM. That approval/disapproval belongs to the Bishop of the Diocese in which HLM is, in this case Bishop Lennon. The other bishops have no authority in his diocese. This is basic Canon Law.
            …And, since Bishop Lennon wrote his letter, no other bishops and no other clerics have endorsed HLM.

          • Elizabeth

            And to add to that, Bishop Lennon hasn’t “warned” ~ he’s “admonished”. Perhaps 3221 is thinking of the letter he wrote concerning Holy Love a year or so prior that was indeed just a “warning”.

            His most recent communication is a Decree, admonishing the faithful….November 2009.

          • 3221

            An admonishment IS a warning, and not a condemnation. Joan of Arc was ‘condemned’ by bishops who told her to ‘renounce her visions’. She replied ‘I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, but I cannot deny my voices.’ Was she disobedient? ( I keep asking the following question but I never get an answer from the scoffers who write here: If your bishop tells you that the Holy Eucharist is only God during Mass, so disregard the Sacred Species otherwise, will you do so so that you can feel truly ‘obedient’?) The bishop under whose jurisdiction Medjugorie was (or is) was disapproving of the apparitions there. He too ‘advised’ people against going there. Eventually Rome took his authority away and a ‘special commission’ was given the task of evaluating Medjugorie. Now Rome is evaluating Medjugorie. It is when Rome itself speaks officially that the matter will be finished.
            My point is that individual bishops can lead you away from what is of God. They are bound to follow the dictates of the Church.and they cannot condemn what is not able to be condemned according to Church Law. If you feel so inclined to take his advisement, go ahead. Do not judge those who do not. They are not under obligation to heed his advisement, unless the site is officially condemned by the Church. Incidentally, I keep hearing about ‘such bad doctrine from those who mock HLM. Again, I ask you, get SPECIFIC. What do you find erroneous?
            Why such a fervor over something no one is asking you to believe? I repeat: Bishop Lennon has only ‘advised’ ‘warned’ and ‘counseled’ his disapproval of HLM. He does not have the canonical liberty to ‘condemn’ it because he would have to show specific errors in teachings there. There are none, nor could he name any. I am willing to bet neither can you.

          • Elizabeth

            Okay, I’ll answer your question that you posed awhile ago. This is simply how I personally would react to your hypothetical question of whether or not I’d obey a Bishop who told me that the Blessed Sacrament is only truly our Lord during the Mass, and outside the Mass it can be disregarded. My reaction to that would of course be disagreement for what should be the obvious reason that a statement such as that is completely contradictory to Church teaching through the millenia, and can be looked up easily by opening one’s Catechism, or child’s Catechism, for that matter. I don’t see the point you might be trying to make by posing that question.

          • 3221

            If the bishop who told you that the living Christ was not present in the host after Mass told you to put the remaining hosts in the garbage, would you obey him? My point in bringing this up is that the corruption within the body of bishops is at an all time high. We have two generations of unformed and misinformed Catholics due to the neglect, defiance, and disbelief of bishops in this country. Bishops have not taught the truth Faith for so long that something like 80% of ‘Catholics’ do not believe in the real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.You seem to think that obedience to a heretical bishop is the way to prove you are catholic. You are so worried about HLM drawing people away from their Faith. What you are missing is that it is the bishops themselves who have undermined the Catholic Faith. The continue to remain silent while the most horrific distortions of our treasured Faith are promulgated. Do I need to tell you that? I just looked up in Aquinas’ Summa Theologica about obedience to bishops. He states that our Faith and its preservation come before obedience to a bishop. I am curious to know where Bishop Lennon stands on defending our treasured Faith. Does he support homosexual groups? Does he advocate for women priests? Does he speak out forcefully on life issues? If he himself is not addressing these issues, it would go a long way to explain his aversion to HLM. HLM gives a clear delineation of the truths of the Catholic Faith. I have asked you to give me examples of heresy in HLM but you ignore that and harp on’ obedience to the bishop’. There is a specific procedure in canonical law for official ‘condemnation’. Church laws is very precise.Words either mean something specific or they don’t . Again, Bishop Lennon does not have canonical authority to ‘condemn’ something if there is no matter of condemnation. He can ‘warn’ and that is what he has done. Given that he himself may have an all-too human agenda for nixing HLM, and add to that he will not give a reason for his disapproval, and add to that the corruption that now infiltrates the Catholic Church, I am very wary of him. HLM is the most exquisite display of the solid mystical theology of the Catholic Church. It is so sound. Yes it warns its followers against heretical bishops–as does Aquinas in the Summa Theologica. HLM is there for all those whose Faith has been thwarted, perverted and destroyed by the very poor catechesis the bishops of this country have perpetrated fore over 40 years. My question to you about obeying the bishop–no matter what– is to put before you where your blindness is going to lead you. Frankly, the bishops have failed miserably in leading the souls of this country to our beautiful God. HLM does not encourage disobedience to legitimate Catholic authority. Your discernment needs to focus on what your bishop is doing–or more to the point–not doing. There is where your danger to your Faith lies. I have asked you to SPECIFICALLY point at least one error in HLM teachings. You cannot and you ignore that question too. Your condescending mockery of what is helping others is not appreciated and does not smack of a graced response. Stop the scoffing and mocking. It is offensive.

          • Elizabeth

            I’ll just say this. The point, for me at least, is that the Bishop of the diocese has issued a decree admonishing the faithful to stay away. Not a warning as you like to interpret it. That’s just a fact of what the document says. So the issue is obedience to the Bishop. It’s irrelevant to this topic the state of the Church these days. It’s irrelevant to this topic how many bishops and priests are either outright heretics or at the very least, not being true shepherds. It doesn’t matter what I may or may not want to point out from the decades of “messages”. That’s all irrelevant to this topic. The topic is disobedience to the Bishop. Period. And that’s all I’m going to say on this. You seem to keep getting lost in trying to get others to explain what’s wrong with HL, or what’s wrong with the “messages, or the country’s terrible bishops. All IRRELEVANT to the topic of a valid Bishop issuing a decree admonishing the faithful to stay away. You choose to twist and squirm and find excuses so there’s no point in continuing this with you.

          • 3221

            Again, Madame, an admonishment IS a warning and a ‘warning and/or ‘admonishment (Same thing–look it up in the dictionary) is NOT A FORMAL COMMAND OF OBEDIENCE and does NOT NEED TO BE OBEYED. Stop judging those who do not heed it. The relevancy of the full doctrine of the Catholic Faith being taught at HLM is most relevant to the deplorable catechesis that has gone on in this country for 40 years due to poor and, in some cases, nonexistent teaching by the bishops.. That you state that HLM messages are ‘irrelevant ‘ to the topic again shows your blind obtuseness to the truth. You are fixated on your belief that those who do not heed Bishop Lennon’s ‘advisement (another synonym for ‘admonishment) are therefore disobedient. . You care not at all for the beauty of what our Church holds, nor do you care that many many people are confused and lost to God because of the poor state of teaching by the bishops of this country. You will not deal with specifics of HLM nor will you discuss Aquinas’ view of obedience to Church authority because you want your own arrogant and distorted view to be accepted by all as the truth without any discussion.. No one is asking you to believe in the messages of HLM. Stop judging it and mocking it with your prideful comments. This whole discussion was initiated by those who are ‘concerned’ with the ‘error’ of those following HLM. You assume you are free to mock that which many others treasure without dealing with the hurt and indignation you engender. Your arrogance is unbounded.

          • 3221

            A warning IS an admonishment. Look it up in the dictionary.

          • Elizabeth

            Thanks for the suggestion. I did. Here’s the entries for synonyms for admonish: berate, censure, rebuke, chide, reprimand, reprove, scold.

            I feel confident that your heart has hardened to any and all attempts by any of us here, or the Bishop, to common sense and obedience. Holy Love Ministries has succeeded in thoroughly confusing you/brainwashing you into endless criticisms of the Church, Her bishops, Her priests, and placing the “messages”, the “apparitions and visions” of Our Lady, Jesus, God the Father, the Saints over and above the One True Church. You’re adhering to a false church of Maureen Sweeney’s (or the devil’s) own making.

          • 3221

            Jesus told us not t judge, did He not? You are judging that my heart is hardened. You and those who are bashing the messages of HLM are not exhibiting to me common sense at all. There is very little dealing with specifics, just continuous harping on Lenon’s ‘ decree.. You yourself are trying to be specific, but what you are doing is exhibiting your inability to think straight. Bishop Lennon issued an admonishment because he could not forbid Catholics from going to HLM. In the same decree he did ‘forbid’ any priests from saying Mass on HLM property. The difference in wording is salient. Dis you read yet my comments a little bit above from this entry regarding your examples of heresy at HLM? You are mixed up, Elizabeth and you need a good Catholic priest to help you think things through.

          • LizEst

            Aquinas: “On the contrary, (Hebrews 13:17) obey your prelates and be subject to them.” (Question 104 Obedience, Article 1).

          • 3221

            Read the sections about primacy of the Faith and when disobedience to bishops is called for. Also, check out Hildebran on the same topic.

          • Mary Kochan

            Yes, it is condemned. The language the bishop used is precisely the language of a condemnation. Please read the article agaian for the explanation.

          • 3221

            Condemnation, Mary, is a canonical act. The bishop ‘warned’ people not to go there. This is an advisement. It does not matter how official he tries to make it sound. To be condemned CANONICALLY is an official act and there are no grounds for it so the bishop–as much as he would like to, I am sure–cannot do so.

          • Kevin Symonds

            @3221: Lennon’s letter was not just a simple “warning.” It follows the precise form of an official condemnation under the Church’s tradition of discerning alleged private revelations. Read the Decree here:

            http://www.dioceseofcleveland.org/news/2009/Holy%20Love%20-%20Decree%20in%20English%20-%202009-11-11.pdf

            I think the Decree speaks for itself and there is no need to elaborate upon this matter.

          • 3221

            Evidently there is fuller need to elaborate further, Kevin. I just read the decree and it is not a canonically official ‘condemnation’ as you so want to think. It is a warning and it contains no ‘forbidding’ of persons to go to HLM. Read it again with the understanding that canonically ite is a ‘warning’, not an official condemnation, for if it were that the word would be used. It is a legal document.

          • Kevin Symonds

            @3221, you have set yourself up to be the interpreter and arbitrator of Lennon’s Decree. That doesn’t work with me.

            The Bishop explicitly states HLM’s claims to be not supernatural in origin. By traditional theology, that very statement constitutes the condemnation spoken of by Mrs. Armstrong in her letter.

            Now you prove to the contrary and I’ll continue discussing with you on this point. Otherwise, I will no longer address the point.

          • 3221

            Saying something is not ‘supernatural in origin’ is saying that ‘something is not supernatural in origin’. It is not a condemnation. A condemnation would be spelled out as a condemnation. The only apparition that I know of that was condemned is Veronica Leuken in Bayside. There the Church acted definitely and swiftly because it was clear it was satanic. The Church is very very slow to either affirm definitely or condemn definitely any apparition, knowing full well that they could be twarting the Holy Spirit. Bishop Lennon’s statement said it was a warning and that is what is was–a warning.

          • LizEst

            3221 – You are absolutely wrong. The Bishop’s decree against the so-called apparitions at Bayside (Vernoica Leuken) never uses the word “condemned.” It says no credibility can be given. I just read the whole thing and so can anyone else who wishes to read it: http://www.ewtn.com/Library/NEWAGE/MUGABAY.TXT

          • 3221

            They surely cannot say ‘no credibility can be given’ about HLM messages, as HLM messages are all the teachings of the Catholic Faith. If the bishop were to state that ‘no credibility can be given’ to HLM messages, he would, in effect, be disavowing the teachings of the Catholic Faith, as the messages of HLM ARE those deep and ancient truths of Catholicism. Our Lady is preserving our beautiful Faith that the bishops are letting die through their ineptitude and cowardice.

          • LizEst

            No, HLM “messages” are not the teachings of the Catholic Faith. It’s what the evil one does – mixing truths and half-truths with false messages. It makes it seems that the so-called messages are authentic. They are not. The messages against what the Church believes and teaches started from the very beginning of these false messages (I’ve listed just a few elsewhere in this blog, together with the dates of the false messages).

            Furthermore, my point was that YOU ARE INCORRECT about the Bayside events. This you quoted falsely. Perhaps you didn’t know that what you said wasn’t true. In any case, don’t post anything on the internet that you are not prepared to defend AND back up with documented, verifiable truth, real truth, not just something you feel is true.

          • 3221

            In your posting of messages from HLM I answered you point by point. There is nothing theologically erroneous in the messages you cited. It is all strictly the teaching of the Catholic Faith. There are no ‘half truths’ in what HLM puts out. You will be unable to show me one ‘half truth’. Go ahead and try. Also, what you interpreted about those messages shows that your thinking is clearly boggled. You are all mixed up big time. I would suggest that you get a sound Catholic priest to help you sort things out. Take what I said in all my responses to your points and show them to any theologically sound priest and you will find out that it all is clear Catholic doctrine. He will also see how mixed up you are.
            Regarding Bayside: To say that there is ‘nothing credible at Bayside’ means there is nothing credible at Bayside. Is this not akin to dismissing it all? ( I know you are anxious to find some error in what I am saying, but get a hold of yourself. Perhaps you need a rest from this discussion. You seem to becoming a little unglued.) Contrary to the Bayside fiasco, Bishop Lennon could not cite one error from HLM. He knew better than to say ‘there is nothing credible (worthy of belief) there. If he has said that, he would have been disavowing the Catholic Faith because everything said at HLM is clear and grounded Catholic doctrine. I am sure he knew that.
            I tell you again,I have backed up all the points you listed about HLM messages with sound and clear Catholic doctrine . Find me one half truth, just one. Find me one theological error–just one. You will not be able to do so.The charism of HLM is the preservation of the true Faith.

          • Kevin Symonds

            I hold in my hand an official, signed and sealed copy of the Bayside document–one that I personally obtained straight from the Diocesan archivist.

            Bayside IS condemned and WITH the backing of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

            That is all.

          • LizEst

            Thanks Kevin. Yes, I understand the force of the document. I just didn’t see the word “condemned” in the citation I linked to. Obviously, you must have something else in your hands. Kudos!

            My point was that 3221 is throwing things out as fact, without confirming and verifying such. And, with lies, he means to convince others and strengthen their belief in HLM.

            You have the document that proves condemnation. I stand (sit) corrected! I take my hat off to you!

          • 3221

            The point is, Madame, that you have a vested interest in proving me wrong. Why not cite some more statements from HLM, and give me your interpretations of them? Let’s give everybody another dollop of your skewered thinking.

          • Kevin Symonds

            @LizEst:disqus, I was referring to the form of the document. It matches all the traditional criteria for condemnation.

          • LizEst

            Ah! Thank you for clarifying, Kevin. Blessed and Merry Christmas and a Blessed and Happy New Year to you and yours!

          • LizEst

            What Canon(s) specifically refer to the act of condemnation as a canonical act?

          • Kevin Symonds

            There is nothing in the 1983 Code of Canon Law that specifies such a process in these affairs (though the Code affects them). There are reasons for this my upcoming book “Private Revelation: What Does the Catholic Church Teach?” goes into this.

            For now, I can say that the word “condemn” is an older, more traditional term used in these affairs. It is employed when the competent ecclesiastical authority decides a claim to be “constat de non supernaturalitate” (does not consist of the supernatural). This explicitly negative judgment is a definitive “God is not the source of this claim.”

            We do not use “condemn” so much nowadays and we owe the change of language to Pope John XXIII.

          • LizEst

            Thank you so much Kevin. As I searched the Code (and the Pastoral Companion to the Code), I was wracking my brain trying to figure out how it might be listed. I figured that someone who made such a claim above (Mr/Ms 3221) would know! Ha! Proves the point that HLM doesn’t have a claim.

            btw, who is publishing your book? And, when will it be out? Will you be seeking an Imprimatur and a Nihil obstat? It is sorely needed.

            Did you see my note above on “Mary Divine Mercy” or “MDM” that some HLM devotees are now also gravitating towards. This one is a little more sophisticated than HLM…but, it also didn’t take long to find messages contradictory to what the Church believes and teaches. Thank you again.

            ps. Your name kind of rings a bell. Have I seen you over at http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/ ?

          • Kevin Symonds

            @LizEst:disqus, if you would like, please feel free to E-mail me privately. Mary Kochan has my contact information.

          • 3221

            Your explanation proves absolutely nothing of substance. When the Church wants to speak definitely, she does so. Is your book going to be this ambiguous?

          • Kevin Symonds

            On the contrary, my statement was quite loaded with theological references. The burden of proof is upon you, not me.

          • 3221

            The only reference you cited is your book. Is this what we can expect from your writings? You cited no decree, no Pope, no Church source.

          • Kevin Symonds

            and in fact, the Holy See was consulted on this matter and appears to be with Lennon.

          • 3221

            We are bound in matterwsof Faith and morals, not an ‘advisement’ about an apparition that has not been officially condemned.

          • 3221

            No one is bound by obedience to follow a bishop’s advisement. What is required is loyalty to the Church in matters of Faith and morals and to a bishop who is upholding these. There is nothing contrary to our Faith at HLM. If there is state it SPECIFICALLY, okay????

          • Harry Flynn

            You, 3221, say there is nothing against the Faith at HLM. The Bishop of Cleveland says otherwise by the fact of his document and he claims to have the backing of the Holy See.

            To whom shall we go? Who has the words of eternal life? JESUS CHRIST who has given authority to his Church, not to some nameless and faceless commentator on an Internet web site.

            You are bound to obey the Bishop of Cleveland whether you like it or not. Yet you come on this web site and disturb people with your conspiratorial and doctrinal ignorance. How dare you and shame on you! Go back to the synagogue of Satan you call “Holy Love Ministries” and leave the Catholic flock alone.

          • Elizabeth

            I foresee a head-exploding coming our way in response to your comment, Harry! Thanks for your clear, straight-to-the-point comment.

          • 3221

            Is that what you wold do, Elizabeth? Explode if someone contradicts you.? We see in others what we are ourselves.

          • Harry Flynn

            What was that you said earlier about leaving one’s interior life to themselves and God, 3221?

          • 3221

            I do not know what I said Harry. Find what you read and tell me, okay?

          • 3221

            I think that you are referring to when I quoted St. Catherine of Siena’s ‘Dialogues’ wherein God the Father tells her to keep her spiritual life between Him and growing in self knowledge. The ‘Dialogues’ is St. Catherine of Siena’s profound spiritual work and is accepted by the Church as indeed she is a Doctor (teacher) of the Church. She tells us that God wants us to focus on growing in self knowledge instead of probing others spiritual state. Jesus tells us the same thing in the Gospel (‘Cast out the beam in your own eye so that you can see clearly to see the speck in your brother’s eye…’)

          • LizEst

            May we have the citation for that quote from St. Catherine of Siena please?

          • 3221

            You can find that citation from Catherine of Sienna in the first chapter of her ‘Dialogues’. And again, if you are questioning such an orthodox, fundamental concept it only goes to prove that you are very mixed up. The principle of self knowledge coming before union with God is fundamental in Catholic mystical theology.. You can find the same principle expounded in the writings of St.Teresa of Avila, and St. John of the Cross to name two others..

          • 3221

            If there were something erroneous in the doctrine taught at HLM, Bishop Lennon would have stated it. His disapproval of HLM does not nullify HLM’s veracity. We are not bound to follow an ‘admonishment’. We are free to heed it or not heed it, as it is not a formal canonical command to obedience.

          • Harry Flynn

            Tell me, 3221, where does the word “admonishment” (or another derivative form) appear in Lennon’s document?

          • 3221

            Perhaps you need to read the document Harry. (Someone above has a way you can bring the document up on the internet.Scroll up and find it.)) It is also noticeable in the decree that Bishop Lennon ‘FORBIDS’ priests (of any diocese) from saying Mass on HLM property. He can FORBID this CANONICALLY as bishop of the diocese of Cleveland, but he does not have the same canonical freedom to FORBID Catholics from going to HLM because he has no canonical reason to do so . There is nothing being preached there against the Faith.. He would need there to be so in order to be freed up to CANONICALLY FORBID Catholics from going there. WORDING IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT IN CANONMICAL DOCUMENTS. Since he cannot FORBID Catholics from going there, he ‘ADMONISHES them not to go. He does not use the word FORBID because he does not have CANONICAL GROUNDS to do so. Have a nice day,Harr.

          • LizEst

            Here are just a few:

            6/10/93 from “Our Lady”: “You do not realize how powerful your prayers are and how much I need them.” This is contrary to our faith. It has never been the Church’s position that the Blessed Virgin Mary needs our prayers. Instead, it is “us sinners” who ask her to pray for us “now and at the hour of our death.”

            6/29/93 from “Our Lady”: “Forgive everything and you will not be in error.” This is contrary to our faith. We are to forgive others and have never been taught to forgive everything. This is the error of relativism. It implies that everything is OK and anything goes.

            7/29/93 from “Our Lady”: “I invite you to comprehend the only thing that keeps a soul from holiness is free will.” This is contrary to our faith. It has never been the Church’s position that free will keeps a soul from holiness. Rather, it is sin that keeps a soul from holiness.

            8/9/93 from “Our Lady”: “There is no peace, save in the grace of My Heart.” This is contrary to our faith. Peace is a gift from God and the fruit of the Holy Spirit. (cf CCC 1464, 1468, 736, 1832, Galatians 5:22-23 Vulgate).

            8/30/93 from “Jesus”: “The door to the soul is free will. It is through this door every grace and virtue flows from the Heart of My Holy Mother.” This is contrary to our faith. And, furthermore, this directly contradicts the 7/29/93 message above from “Our Lady! which indicates that it is free will that keeps a soul from holiness! Even the messages contradict themselves! Grace and virtue don’t flow from the Blessed Virgin Mary through our own free will. Our will doesn’t determine what flows from the BVM.

            9/3/93 from “Our Lady”: “My little messenger, what I most wish to convey to you is how much Jesus
            depends on souls who have sincerely consecrated themselves to the Cross.” This is contrary to our faith. We don’t consecrated ourselves to the Cross. We consecrate ourselves to God. In that consecration to God, we can accept the Cross, help bear the cross, follow the way of the Cross. But, we don’t consecrate ourselves to the Cross. That would be tantamount to making the Cross into a god. And, that would be the sin of idolatry.

            These are just a few examples of “messages” contrary to our faith that come out of “HLM.” There are many, many others.

          • 3221

            I will answer your questions one by one:

            (1) ‘Our Lady does not need our prayers’. Oh, but Our Lady DOES NEED our prayers. She asks for her loyal sons and daughters to pray the Rosary so that the sufferings of those in purgatory may be mitigated and that they may speedily be brought to Heaven. She has asked us to pray for sinners repeatedly. She asked this at Fatima. Of course Our Lady needs our prayers. This is and has always been the teaching of the Catholic Church. She asked little Jacinta at Fatima, ‘Do you want to HELP ME save sinners? Our Lady is asking us to HELP HER through our prayers.

            (2)Forgive everything’. (meaning ‘every wrong that has been done to you’). You are mixing up forgiving hurts and evils that are done to us with condoning sin. Our Mother is not asking us to condone sin by saying ‘forgive everything’. She means hold no grudges, do not withhold forgiveness no matter what someone does to you. Lack of forgiveness is not of God because it is against LOVE. There is no meaning here that we are to condone sin,

            (3)’the only thing that keeps a soul from holiness is free will’. Do you not know that it is through our free will choices that we sin? Sin is to use our free will to violate what God wants. Without free will there would be no sin. Yes, if we use our free will to sin,we, in effect, tie God’s Hands. He cannot act in us unless we give Him our free will choice to do so. When we use our free will to do as God asks us , it is called cooperating with grace. If we do not cooperate with God’s Will through free will choice, we sin. Our free will is our liberty to choose or not choose God. It is for this reason that Our Lady says free will keeps us from holiness. Again, what Our Mother says here is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

            (4) ‘There is no peace, save in the grace of My Heart’. the teaching of the Church is that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces; all graces flow through Her Immaculate Heart. She is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit, Who is One with Her through grace FLOWS THROUGH HER. This is a fundamental teaching of the Catholic Church. In the Mystical Theology of St. John of the Cross (Doctor of Mystical Theology of the Catholic Church) he explains that in mystical union with God, the soul becomes God and God becomes the soul. This is true of Mary as of no other creature. Your Mother Mary is so wedded to God and you will find His peace through allowing her to lead you to Her Heart where she has untold graces just for you. This IS the teaching of the Catholic Church.

            (5)’The door to the soul is free will. It is through this door every grace and virtue flows from the Heart of My holy Mother.’ Here are repeated two points we discussed above. The door to the soul IS free will because it is through our free choice (free will) that we CHOOSE either God or sin. It is through our free will that we either choose to cooperate with the grace that God offers us, or we choose to reject His grace. If we CHOOSE (use our free will) to REJECT God’s grace, it cannot flow into our souls. God never violates our free will, as He wants our liberty to be intact, and it gives Him so much glory when we DO CHOOSE (through our free will) to accept His grace and allow it to flow into our soul.

            The second part is the point about all grace flowing through Mary’s Immaculate Heart. All grace flows through Mary’s Heart because (as was said above) she is the Mediatrix of all graces. We do not have the power to stop grace from Mary’s Heart from flowing into OTHERS’ hearts, but, by our free will choice to reject the grace offered to us THROUGH Mary’s Heart, we can indeed prevent it from flowing into OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL HEART. This again, is the issue of either cooperating with grace, or rejecting grace. Our free will is a powerful gift from God. Our destiny is in our own hands. Our free will gives us the power to allow grace to flow into us THROUGH Mary, or prevent that grace from flowing into us THROUGH Mary. This is why Jesus says that our free will is the door to our souls. We can either OPEN the door (cooperate with grace) or CLOSE the door( choose to REJECT the grace flowing THROUGH Mary’s Heart. Indeed our free will determines whether or not grace will flow into our hearts. This is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church.

            (6)’What I most wish to convey to you is how much Jesus depends on souls who have sincerely consecrated themselves to the Cross’. I do not know where you are getting your theological understandings from, LizEst, but they are all mixed up. First of all, Jesus DOES DEPEND on us to help Him save the world. St.Paul tells us, ‘I make up in my body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.’ We are called through our sufferings –UNITED TO JESUS- to help Him redeem the world. There is a whole doctrine of redemptive suffering that is the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Christ DEPENDS on us to be His Hands, His Voice, His Presence in this world that needs Him so much. Therese of Lisieux ((Doctor of the Church) told her novices ‘Pick up a pin and save a soul’. What she meant was, any action, however small, united with Jesus and offered to His Father, has redemptive value. Souls are lost because we do not pray for them, we do not offer ourselves in union with Jesus so that we can through our union with Jesus win the grace these souls need to turn to God.

            You seem, LizEst, to have trouble with figures of speech. I memtioned this before when you criticized the ‘chambers of the heart’ that it is a metaphor. We have a similar situation in your trouble with ‘consecration to the Cross’. the use of the word ‘Cross’ here is meant to convey that one must consecrate–set one’s self apart for- entering into the sufferings of one’s life with generous acceptance of God’s Will. This is true adoration–not idolatry. ‘Consecration to the Cross’ means generous acceptance–even joyfully– of all the sufferings that God allows in one’s life.

            These are my answers to your points about which you claim that HLM is in error. HLM is NOT at all in error.The mystical theology pouring out of HLM is an exquisite explanation and delineation of the deepest mystical theology of the Catholic Church. Would to God we were hearing these treasured spiritual principles in our parishes today. Give me some more points. There is no error in what is coming out of HLM.

          • Elizabeth

            Who gave you this “talking point”? Jesus or Mary? Or maybe St.Thomas Aquinas? St. Catherine of Sienna?

            This kind of stuff is EXACTLY what’s contained in a great number of the so-called messages. Lots of praise from Jesus and the Blessed Mother is heaped on those who attend Holy Love as being the “remnant faithful”, the special ones, fighting the good fight against the wicked Church, priests and bishops in these dark times.

            Satan’s work! Those “messages” have you all turning your backs on the Church in favor of a condemned, false apparition site! If that isn’t the Evil One at work, I don’t know what is.

          • 3221

            The ‘remnant faithful’ according to Holy Love messages are those who retain full belief in the Holy Eucharist, in the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, who pray the Rosary and worship God in Eucharistic adoration. If you are on this planet and catholic, you know these requirements do not fit many, many priests, catholic lay people. There is a remnant that holds to the above, but in the mainstream these beliefs are trivialized within the Catholic Church. Or are you so out of it that you do not see that?

          • Elizabeth

            I would reply to you that the “messages” imply that the “remnant faithful” are those who adhere to “Holy Love”, i.e., you and those like you who continue to cling to the site.

          • 3221

            Here is a clear example of your biased opinion interpreting what HLM is saying. I just read yesterday about HLM’s description of the remnant.. The remnant are those who adhere to the Holy Eucharist, adoration, the Magisterium, the rosary. The remnant are not those necessarily following HLM, but rather those who follow the truths of the Catholic Church with a humble openness to God.If one is doing this, one does not necessarily need HLM to tell them what one already knows. The messages ‘imply’ nothing more. It is your biased opinion reading the messages through the distorted lens of your own biased opinion that concludes what you do…

          • 3221

            The CCC gave me my talking points. ‘This kind of stuff’ is found in there. You know more than the Church if you declare HLM ‘satan’s work’. the Church still reserves judgement, as it has not officially condemned HLM. This has all been said.

          • LizEst

            “Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments [CCC 1790]…This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man ‘takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.’ In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits [CCC 1791]…Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others…assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching…these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct [CCC 1792]…Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt [CCC 1801].”

          • 3221

            What is your point in quoting all these excerpts from the Gospel?

          • 3221

            Again, LOOK UP AQUINAS’ TEACHING ON WHEN TO DISOBEY A BISHOP. IN TH sUMMA

          • Dave

            “Primacy of conscience trumps blindly following disobedient bishops.” You do realize, don’t you, that this is exactly the same reasoning used by those who claim the right to reject certain teachings of the Church. That should give you a clue that you are on the wrong path.

          • Elizabeth

            There are some seventy references to conscience in the Catechism — and none of them affirm the “primacy” of the conscience, but repeatedly state that an authentic conscience is one that has been submitted to God, to the Gospel, and to the truth.

          • 3221

            Did it say to submit to heretical bishops? And I am not speaking of HLM being accepted by bishops. I am speaking about bishops who guide their sheep into error. Mother Teresa and her sisters refused to sit after they had received the Holy Eucharist when their bishop specifically reprimanded them and told them to do so. Mother Teresa replied that, if their kneeling was a problem, they would leave the diocese. Needless to say, he backed down. Now, tell me, was the great Mother Teresa disobedient?

          • Elizabeth

            In what way are you accusing Bishop Lennon of being heretical?

          • 3221

            I am not accusing Bishop Lennon of anything. Did I name him in my question to you? The main point of all the accusations in this correspondence is that we need to follow what our bishop says no matter what. The harping criticism is that to be ‘Catholic’ one must be obedient to one’s bishop no matter what. You just looked up how obedience is defined in the CCC. Obedience does not mean following the erroneous directives of bishops. it does not mean not heeding a ‘warning’ from a bishop. Mother Teresa was in a diocese once where the bishop insisted that she and her sisters sit after receiving Holy Communion. Mother Teresa refused and the bishop still insisted that she do so. She told him that if it were a problem that she and her sisters kneel after Holy Communion, then they would leave the diocese. He backed down. Tell me, was Mother Teresa disobedient? HLM teaches the truths of the Catholic Faith in full. Can you say that of many bishops now in this country? Bishop Lennon is not able to state the reason that he’ warns’ Catholics to stay away from HLM. He just doesn’t like it. One would wonder which truth of the Catholic Faith bothers him..

          • LizEst

            Would you please cite the reference for your information on Mother Teresa?

          • 3221

            My reference is the newspaper,’The Wanderer’ I do not know which issue, butif you contact them I am sure they can hjelp yo locate the correct issue. it was a few years ago.

          • LizEst

            Thank you, I have contacted them.

          • Harry Flynn

            You are too nice, LizEst. It is 3221′s responsibility to have the information handy.

          • LizEst

            …and you are too kind Harry! Elsewhere, in these responses, I posted “The Wanderer’s” response which was something to the effect that “The Wanderer” is not indexed but they could not recall such a story so they were unable to confirm that information. 3221 came right back to me saying (words to the effect) that it did happen even if I couldn’t verify it!!!!!!!!!!! I’m still awaiting word from the Mother Teresa Center. I suspect they may be having trouble verifying it as well, hence the delay.

            Wishing you and yours a Blessed and Merry Christmas and a Blessed and Happy New Year!

        • Kevin Symonds

          “The fact that Bishop Lennon won’t provide me or others any
          concrete evidence of why he has made this decision makes me very skeptical of his decision.”
          There is an old adage in Scholastic(?) philosophy that goes something like this, “That which is obvious admits no debate.”
          When an alleged apparition attacks the Church, there is reason enough for the local Ordinary to say, “thanks but no thanks.”

          • 3221

            HLM attackes the Church??? HLM is doing the job that the bishops should be doing, that is teaching the ancient truths and deep theology of the CCC.

          • Kevin Symonds

            @3221: Here we have an example of a double standard. HLM says it isn’t a Catholic organization. Yet it is allegedly teaching the “deep theology” of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

            One is either Catholic or not. This is the law of non-contradiction.

            Your argument, 3221, only proves the “ecumenical ministry” claim is a ploy to get out from under the legitimate authority of the local Ordinary and the Holy See. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

            3221, if you do not see this, there is no purpose in further communicating with me on this matter.

          • 3221

            Whether or not an organization is under the authority of a diocese it still is free to share Catholic doctrine. Doctrine is doctrine no matter who is sharing it. if it the teaching of the Church, it is the teaching of the Church. Please do not respond with the same old response about Lennon’s decree. I suggest you read Aquinas on obedience instead. do something new.

  • Tess

    It is hard for me to grasp the influence of the Ohio diocese attempt to stop pilgrims from going to Holy love, which is a Ecumenical Ministrry for all people and all nations. But it does not surprise me when you look back in history. While I was walking on the property not long ago I asked a priest from Nigera why so many priests from around the world are coming here. He told me “when our country , church and priests were in trouble,the priests from the USA came and helped us. Now your church and country are in trouble and we are here to help and pray for all of you. Look at the history of apparitions. Our blessed Mother only comes as a loving Mother trying to bring back her wayward children back to her son. The message here is so simple love God and neighbor as yourself.i thank God he gives us all our free will and pray from the bottom of my heart for wisdom and heavenly discernment for all. God bless you all.

    • Elizabeth

      The Bishop’s role is to guide his sheep ~ us. Why is it hard for you to grasp the Bishop’s attempt to stop his sheep from going to a place that has been deemed “not of supernatural origin”? In order to protect their souls. It’s his job. Would you be equally perplexed if Pope Benedict XVI announced tonight that for the good of souls, Catholics are not allowed to visit Holy Love? What would you do then? I’m truly curious how far this would go for you.

      • Tess

        dear Elizabeth, how is it that other bishops go there and pray regularly? Is Bishop Lennon not under investigation? He is not my Bishop. He is the Cleveland bishop and so many, many wonderful priest go there. Are they being disobedient? I have all the right in the world to go. If Our precious Pope told us we were forbidden to go I would listen. In the meantime I really cannot understand how this ministry that promotes. daily Mass, rosary, weekly adoration and love of all is so frowned apron. Wish my parish would be so eager to do this. The growth of this appiration site is truly a miracle in this day and age. I pray daily for wisdom and dicernment. And hope for the help of Our Blessed Mother And her son Jesus.

        • Elizabeth

          Dear Tess: Bishop Lennon is under investigation? I’ve not heard anything about this. Under investigation for what?

        • Kevin Symonds

          Miss Tess, Lennon’s letter said the Holy See was consulted on this matter. Apparently, the final authority of the Catholic Church agrees with Lennon’s position.

  • Elizabeth

    Whew, this article has sure brought out the Holy Love cult-mentality, hasn’t it? It’s interesting to read some of the defenders and their circular logic. As for arguing about it, from what I’m reading here, I don’t think it would make any dent whatsoever, no matter how orthodox, learned, or convincing the argument. I’ve even thought of going to the Holy Love website and copying/pasting some of the more glaringly ridiculous “messages” to try to argue it that way, but I see it would be futile. If these folks don’t yet have any internal warning flags going up at this point, argument isn’t going to do it.

    • 3221

      I would ask that you speak in specifics. Give me one example of ‘circular logic’. Why is it that it is so offensive to you that persons believe in and follow Holy Love Ministries?

    • 3221

      Rather, it has brought out the apparition mockers full force.

  • Kevin Symonds

    Many Catholics wishing to promote alleged or unapproved private revelations use a maxim to justify their position. The maxim is usually something along these lines: “there are bad people in the Church today.”

    The implication is these “bad people” (whoever they may be) are attempting to “suppress” a “message” purported to be from heaven. The implication arouses a “persecution” motif and the commensurate emotions that go along with the motif. It attributes whole malice to persons, effectively demonizing them.

    To add insult to injury, further character assassination is committed against those said to be “suppressing” the alleged messages. This happens when other legitimate actions done by the alleged “suppressor” are brought up in a negative way (example: Bishop Lennon closing parishes).

    The above is more about emotions and passions run amock than the practicing of Divine/Catholic Faith (to say nothing of Reason). This is a sin.

    I wish to look at the facts of HLM’s case in syllogistic fashion.

    1) Maureen Sweeney-Kyle professes the Catholic faith.
    2) All Catholics are obliged under Church law to obey the directives of the competent ecclesiastical authority on matters of private revelation.
    3) Therefore, Sweeney-Kyle must obey the decision of the competent ecclesiastical authorities (remember, both Lennon and the Holy See were involved in this matter).

    Sweeney-Kyle’s logic of “ecumenical ministry” does not hold water when weighed against Church doctrine and law.

    Additionally, the “bad people in the Church” claim is also false, unless Sweeney-Kyle (et al) can prove that somehow the documents (and the doctrine behind them) that govern these matters were somehow written by these “bad people” to suppress HLM. By “documents” I mean the 1983 Code of Canon Law and the 1978 CDF letter “Normae S. Congregationis.” This is to say nothing of the many other documents on these affairs throughout the Church’s tradition.
    In conclusion, any Catholic who continues to promote HLM and Maureen Sweeney-Kyle needs to examine their conscience and review Church teaching. A trip to the confessional is not a bad thing either.
    -Kevin J. Symonds

    • LizEst

      Thanks Kevin. Unfortunately, those have cultish devotion to things like HLM tend to brook no logic. But, it is good to dissect their techniques and arguments. It teaches the rest of us good apologetics skills. Thank you so much. God bless you Kevin.

  • Glenn Dallaire

    As the webmaster of 5 different Catholic websites–one being the “Mystics of the Church” website– I have spent *many* years studying the lives of the mystics/saints/visionaries in the Catholic church, so I believe I can speak to this issue with at least some background and experience in what the Church teaches concerning obedience to the legitimate Church authority. And obviously, I am no way biased against mystics and visionaries–in fact the entire Mystics of the Church website is in support of them. However, alleged visionaries, mystics and those who follow them MUST obey and follow the authority that Jesus established in His Church.

    In regards to judging authenticity when it comes to mystics and visionaries, obedience is the litmus test of the Church. IF A MYSTIC-VISIONARY IS DISOBEDIENT TO THE LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCH (ie- local Bishop, but also in the case of a professed religious, this could be their abbott, mother superior, provencial etc) -IF A ALLEGED VISIONARY IS DISOBEDIENT TO THE LOCAL BISHOP, THEN YOU CAN BE SURE THAT SUCH A PERSON IS NOT AUTHENTIC.

    Jesus (and Mary) would NEVER set Himself against His own Church. Period.

    And by setting themselves against His church, visionaries and their followers who knowingly disobey a authoritative and binding judgement of their Bishop willfully separate themselves from the Catholic church.

    I have written an article about visionaries entitled “Private revelations and Obedience to the Catholic Church” which includes some biblical references and also some examples from the Saints in regards to the absolute necessity of obedience for visionaries/mystics and those who follow them. Those interested can read it on the “Mystics of the Church” website.

    -Glenn Dallaire
    Connecticut, USA

    • Elizabeth

      Excellent, pertinent points. I used to look through the Holy Love website to try to familiarize myself with some of the messages so I could effectively discuss it with my friends who are avid devotees. Especially after the Bishop came out strongly with his condemnation, there were numerous “messages” both from the Blessed Mother AND Jesus explaining to “us dear children” that the Bishop is wrong and that “we all must continue to come to this holy site” and words to that effect.

      I can’t tell you how creepy it was and continues to be anytime I receive one of those so-called messages forwarded to me by my well-meaning, but totally deluded, friends.

    • LizEst

      Thanks Glenn. I referenced the Sister Magdalena of the Cross post from your website about six hours ago (close to the bottom of this page). I love your site.

      btw, for those who are interested in Glenn’s article “Private Revelations and Obedience to the Catholic Church” here is the link:
      http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2009/11/obedience-to-catholic-church-judging.html

  • TomD

    Patti, interesting article. I have an interesting story about another alleged apparition site: Conyers, GA… I went to Conyers quite innocently; more or less a tag-a-long with my wife and her sister and mom. Heck, I didn’t even say the rosary with all the other thousands gathered ther. However, my experience there (quite unexpected) threw me into 19 years of anxiety, stress, and doubt. My story is quite unusual, perhaps. But I emphasize what you noted in your story: you are not leading souls away from salvation with your warning. The devil can be there, too. I really don’t advise these places for most folks. In fact, sometimes I’ve thought about writing my own book about how disastrous my visit to Conyers became to my own personal faith journal. But, alas, I’m not a writer. God bless you all, and be careful !!!

  • tom

    lets remember st joan of arc.please read and read about her she was absolutly right and the good dominican priest and the the english bishop/s treated her shamefully while captive. she was betrayed by one of her own. look at luther and especially king henry and st thomas moore. they knew each other since they were 9 yrs old. thomas stated 20 yrs before he was beheaded that the king would have his ,thomas’head if thomas interferred with the king. what might be going on at all these apparition sites is being done as Amos the the prophet stated in ch 3 lines 7&8.. read read read. if u believe whats going on in the middle east and especially the holy land is all about democracy, then i believe we are operating under and are in the age of THE OPERATION OF ERROR’ of the end of the age. i was a po in nyc many yrs ago. and was not very well in many ways. the bmv took me to the divine mercy devotion thanks to my wife and her dear mother and father-in law. my healing started in medjugorje the last week of the marian yr in 88, the finger of the lord touched my soul and the divine mercy devotion gave me the courage to face my sinfullness yrs later. we have known about holy love since the 80s and we believe in those apparitions. see how the apparitions to father gobbi and sister faustina were treated and all the apparitions of the bmv and u just might, just might see where we are in the present age.. the high clergy treated the lord in a shamful manner and now for the last almost two hundred yrs the visionaries and appearnces of the the bvm are being treated in the way of the intellect because the old deceiver has learned the way of the western civilization is prideful and greedy. he knows the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church so its easier for man not to go to church..or where the true spirit of god is calling us back to true worship. how manny bishops gave lip service to jp2. i believe there were over a hundred clergy in non holy relationships for many yrs and overlooked by whom.??? if there is no sin and redemption we realize the evil one knowns we dont need a holy church or a ine world church where anything goes like in pagan roman and greek times past or are they ??? god bless

  • LizEst

    There are four chambers in the human heart.

    Christ was a man [human] like us in all things but sin.

    That means that he had, and has, four chambers in the human heart of His human nature. No more. No less.

    God the Father is spirit and God the Holy Spirit is spirit. Therefore, only one person of the Holy Trinity has a heart. That person is Jesus, the Word of God made flesh.

    So, the heart of the Triune God, existing only in the human nature of the second person of the Holy Trinity, is a four-chambered heart, NOT A SIX-CHAMBERED HEART AS CLAIMED BY THE “HOLY LOVE MESSAGES.”

    “Holy Love messages” do not even have the facts about human anatomy correct. How sad that, even in the face of the most basic logic, many refuse to understand how dangerous it is to follow the serpentine path of these untruths.

    • Disgusted with Cynics

      Evidently you are not cognizant of the concept of metaphor, right? The chambers of the heart spoken about at Holy Love Ministries is indicative of entering more deeply into union with God. The human heart is a metaphor for the core of one’s being being open to God. Pray for our bishops, won’t you? The roads to hell are paved wit their skulls, according to St.Philip Neri. If only they would speak as forcefully and clearly about the evil of abortion as does Holy Love Ministries. Condemnation of what is said at HLM cannot happen canonically, for, in order for that to happen, Holy Love Ministries would have to manifest heresy. It has not.

      • LizEst

        So, you would also accept a metaphor of a God with multiple human arms and hands like some of the Hindu gods?

        A six-chambered heart is not an apt metaphor for the heart of God.

        “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth” (“Fides et Ratio” Encyclical Letter On the Relationship between Faith and Reason, Pope John Paul II, 1998).

        • 32212

          The writings of HLM are totally reasonable. The metaphor of the chambers of the heart are in no way contradictory to what is human and real. I read up on them before responding to your criticism. the 5th chamber is a hidden chamber WITHIN the 4th chamber. The 6th chamber encompasses ALL CHAMBERS as it represents the ‘Heart of God the Father’. Again, this is a metaphor for the interior life of grace as it is stated by the mystical theology of the Catholic Church. Remember those who walked away from Christ because He told them,’; Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of God, you have no life in you.’ this was a ‘hard saying’ for them. Their finite minds could not grasp His meaning, and their mistake was not in trusting Him. Be careful of what you so cynically dismiss. You may be sinning against the Holy Spirit. You are unwise to condemn what you do not fully understand nor grasp. Holy Mother the Church is wise, wise enough to reserve judgement the issue of authenticity. You do so as well..

          • LizEst

            “The Lord indeed is my savior; I am confident and unafraid. My strength and my courage is the Lord, and he has been my savior.” (Isaiah 12:2).

            “Deliver us Lord, we pray, from every evil, graciously grant peace in our days, that, by the help of your mercy, we may be always free from sin and safe from all distress, as we await the blessed hope and the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.” (Embolism from Mass prayers).

          • 3221

            Yur reply is a good example of a non sequitor.

          • Elizabeth

            Holy Mother Church is indeed wise. You end your comment by saying the Church is “wise enough to reserve judgement the issue of authenticity.” I don’t understand what you’re implying. Holy Church HAS spoken. The Bishop has spoken after an investigation of Holy Love, as requested by Pope Benedict XVI. He issued his Decree in November of 2009. That’s what we’re all talking about here. What in the world are YOU talking about?

            The site has been deemed to be “not of supernatural origin” and the faithful have been admonished to not visit the site, as well as all clerics forbidden to visit or to administer any and all sacraments at this site. Holy Mother Church hasn’t “reserved judgement”, as you say. She HAS judged and you are told to stay away.

          • LizEst

            …and not only were the decree and letter published in English, they were also published in Spanish and Korean …undoubtedly to insure that language was not a barrier to getting the information:

            http://www.dioceseofcleveland.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=343:decree-holy-love-ministries-decreto-ministerios-del-santo-amor-&catid=67

          • 3221

            First of all, the Bishop of the diocese in which HLM is, has been unable to CONDEMN HLM because there is no heresy being promulgated there.. Condemnation would be a canonical act and it is not warranted because there is no heresy being preached there. Secondly, priests are NOT forbidden to go to Holy Love. Many of them do go and believe in Holy Love apparitions. The Bishop of the diocese has requested that no Masses be offered on the property of Holy Love and he has requested that the priests under his jurisdiction do not go there. HLM is obedient to this request, and no masses are offeredat HLM.

            The Bishop of a diocese is not the last word on any apparition. Often genuine sites that are later approved by the Church are frowned upon by the bishop under which they serve. Joan of Arc was condemned as a heretic by Catholic bishops and burned at the stake by the Catholic bishops who hated her. Later she was canonized by the Catholic Church.

            Thirdly, there are many bishops who not only approve, but are actually involved, in the promulgation of HLM. These are the facts and this is ‘what in the world I am talking about.’

            Let me ask you a question: What will you do and to whom–or should I say to Whom– will you be obedient when your bishop tells you that the Holy Eucharist is only a symbol and not really the Body and Blood of Jesus? If your answer is that that will never happen, my next question to you is, ‘What world are you living in?’ With good reason the Church is very slow to condemn apparitions and their messages as She knows that She just might be condemning the work of God. No one is asking you to accept and believe in HLM. I ask you to stand with the Church and reserve judgement. The faithful have been ‘admonished’ not to go to HLM. An ‘admonishment’ is a warning. It is not a command to obedience. Anyone who goes to HLM is not disobedient. The bishops condemned Joan of Arc. Were they standing with truth? Were people disobedient to believe in her although their bishop condemned her?

            Stop making premature judgments about HLM. Allow God to unfold the truth–His full Truth.

          • Matthew_Roth

            Those other bishops deserve our correction, for they undermine the authority of their brother bishop, who has spoken definitively. (And that’s presuming any exist. Unfortunately, they do for that fakery-or demonic trickery- in a small Bosnian village…)

          • 3221

            Bishop Lennon has NOT spoken ‘definitively’. He has issued a warning. Canonical Church language is very specific, and when a condemnation is issued it is an official canonical document with no ambiguity of language.

          • LizEst

            What is the applicable Canon number for what you have just stated?

  • Patti

    For the record, I have not deleted anyone’s comments. I am not one of the editors and have no such control over this conversation. It is very frustrating for many, I’m sure, to point out the clear teachings of the CHurch and the history of all approved visionaries as having obedient visionaries. There have been many examples of dishonesty and foolishness in the messages. This is an example of what the devil gets out of false apparitions. He may hate the rosary but he loves people rejecting Catholic Church authority which is what he is getting out of this deal. People are making excuses, ignoring abnormalities and rejecting Church teaching and authority.

  • Patti

    To Tom D: I too went to Conyers, GA as well as Kettle River and stopped by Necadah, WI once when I noticed a large billboard advertising a Marion Shrine. By the time I stopped at the latter place, I was much more informed and immediately felt the place was creepy for many reasons. People bring their holiness with them, so prayers and love of God is usually present. But that does not prove an authentic apparition. Many people have brought forth personal testimony and facts against HL, but still, followers persist. Where I live, there were many families traveling across several states to go to HL. Most of the ones that I know now reject it. I understand the attraction, but I’m not understanding that people are rejecting Church authority and facts.

    • TomD

      It is not inconceivable to me that when tens of thousands of people gather in one place to praise God and pray the Rosary (like at Conyers, or other alleged sites) that perhaps God does indeed manifest Himself there in some greater way regardless of whether or not the “visionary” is authentically representing Him; and that therefore people will leave those places with some kind of sign, greater awareness, spiritual healing,etc.. The problem, however, comes later when/if the predictions fail (like Conyers and so many others), the church disapproves of the messages and gatherings, the visionaries disregard the church, lawsuits come forth (like, again, Conyers, between Our Loving Mother whatever and Nancy Fowler), etc. This can become a very large problem to some folks to visit these sites, and trust in them, and can cause them to question themselves, their faith, and their church. I know. Been there. I know others also. In general, if it is not church approved (Lourdes, Fatima, etc.), I think one should be hesitant in going there. It can lead to a crisis in faith instead of the reverse. You have every right – even a duty – to suggest caution, as you did in your article. Doing so is not leading souls away from salvation, as some suggested. God bless you all.

  • Helen

    All I can say is this
    I was At the previous site. Had a friend who could not have a baby. Verified by 3 doctors. I gave her the spring water and almost right away she became pregnant

    Then just about two years ago went to the new place with my daughter. I prayed that I believe and am not looking for a miracle but help those who don’t believe. At the time of the apparition my daughter saw the Blessed Mother herself. Described her to me then was announced the message and what she was wearing

    To this day my daughter recites the rosary daily and every possible chance Adoration
    Wouldn’t you think these are the blessed fruits of a true apparition?

    • Elizabeth

      No.

      • 3221

        Why not?

  • Elizabeth

    Does this actually sound like the Blessed Mother to you:

    According to a December 5, 1994, fund-raising letter, the spiritual entities that were delivering messages to Maureen wanted “three to five acres with options on the surrounding land.” The Blessed Mother also wanted a 900 number and was calling out to financial backers for help, “Dear children, the hour has come when you need to pool your resources just as the apostles did, all for the greater glory of God,” reads a letter mailed to potential donors. “Search your hearts, find your assets, and contribute generously.”

    How about this one from St. Thomas Aquinas on Nov. 17, 2009, after the condemnation:

    “The ‘decree’ set forth by your bishop concerning participation in this Mission here was presented as though it carried with it the charge of blind obedience. It did not. The words were cleverly chosen. An admonition* is not a dictate. Further, no one can or should dictate against Heaven’s intervention here. Do not let anyone take away your free will choices.”

    Here’s one from St. Catherine of Sienna on Nov. 18, 2009:

    “Do not be fooled to believe you are not allowed to come. Heaven calls you here.”

    And from our Lord himself on Nov. 13, 2009:

    “My brothers and sisters, tonight confusion may have entered your hearts concerning certain statements from the diocese. I have come to ask you some questions to help you to think like citizens of Heaven, not of earth.”…….”My brothers and sisters, you must not place OFFICE and AUTHORITY and TITLE above the TRUTH.”

    And finally, this from God, the Father:

    “I, your Eternal Father, call you here. This Mission stands for the truth of the gospel message of love. The error is in hearts that oppose the gospel and the graces which support it here.”

    Come on people. Wake up.

    • denis renaud

      I suggest you wake up. Blind obedience is for slaves not for thinking people. If the messages are true than all the above messages you have quoted are totally logical. Did the early Chistians refuse to believe in Jesus because the local religious authorities objected?

  • bob v

    I thank God for Holy Love!!!
    It was a game changer for me. Satan had me all wrapped up and ready to go as I fell prey to the minimalizm and liberalism in my local parish. I just needed to love my neighbor to be saved… no matter concern for personal sin, let your (unformed) conscience be your guide, do what feels right…
    Yes, Holy Love is a very dangerous place. If your not careful it will shake you out of the complacency and watered down Catholicism rampant in parish life today and turn you into a real on-fire Catholic!! Stay away so you not fall into a deep personal devotion and love for Blessed Mother and and the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I know- it has turned me into a daily communicant and I can not get through the day without wanting to pray the rosary and study scripture. You will be chastised by friends and family for being so true to the faith. You will become a Pro Life zealot and give up your hobbies to do ministry work for the love of God (not just neighbor).
    Holy Love is no different than Jesus time when it was the devote Jew and those in authority that had the hardest time accepting Him. All good Catholics know pride is blinding, especially spiritual pride.
    God Bless and Mary Keep in Holy Love,
    bob v

    • LizEst

      So glad you turned your life around. Keep your eyes and heart open!

    • Elizabeth

      Yes indeed, Bob. Good points all. It apparently also makes some Catholics so prideful that they’ve decided they know better than the Church, i.e. the Bishop. Spiritual pride ~ you nailed it, but fail to see it in yourself.

  • Elizabeth

    Please ponder these words of Jesus to St. Margaret Mary Alacoque after she explained to Him that she did not do something that He had asked of her because her Superior forbid it:

    “Therefore not only do I desire that you should do what your Superior commands, but also that you should do nothing of all that I order without their consent. I love obedience, and without it no one can please me” (Autobiography of St. Margaret Mary # 47).

    From EWTN document PRIVATE REVELATIONS AND DISCERNMENT OF SPIRITS:

    “The objection will be raised: The Church was so slow in approving Fatima, and so people lost so many graces while waiting. We reply: They lost nothing at all. Visions are not like sacraments, which produce their effect by their own power (that is, the power of Christ working through them) in those who do not place an obstacle. ” (Fr. William G. Most)

    • LizEst

      Excellent, Elizabeth. Thank you for posting this.

    • Dave

      EXCELLENT and apropos quote from the revelations to St. Margaret Mary. Now compare that Jesus with the Jesus from “Holy Love.”

      • Elizabeth

        I know. It’s pretty obvious, isn’t it?

  • anniem

    This is so sad that people run after these “private” revelations that bring some notoriety to a person in need, while the Fatima message is no longer preached. We have NOT fulfilled Our Lady’s requests to honor her on the Five First Saturdays. No wonder the world,particularly the USA is in such a mess-morally and spiritually. When will we learn to listen and obey the Holy Spirit???

  • Peggy

    I enjoy visiting holylove and believe that it is for all faiths just as Mary has appeared in Cairo. We are all children of God and she wants to save everyone. I have seen nothing wrong and feel very peaceful there. People have scoffed at places like Fatima and Lourdes…too — in the first years….even Pope John Paul said we should be ecumenical….all people of God.

  • Elizabeth

    Does it not seem a bit odd that Jesus would be speaking about what he calls the Angel Chip, the dark chip, that Satan is preparing and in the near future, we all will have inserted under the skin, and Satan will then be able to control our minds by it. And so we should never agree to wearing this Angel Chip.

    Or Jesus and Mary incessantly talk about U.S. politics, politicians, who to vote for, applauding various election outcomes. World economy. Natural disasters. On and on. In all the various approved apparitions throughout the centuries, does the Blessed Mother or Jesus talk of worldly events, the economy, politicians and the U.S. economy? Come on folks. What’s wrong with your internal compass?

    “For there will arise false Christs and false prophets. And they will produce great signs and wonders, so much so as to lead into error even the elect (if this could be).” ~Mt 24:24

    • LizEst

      Sadly, some cannot, or will not, recognize the Shepherd’s voice (cf John 10:14). They call evil good and good evil (cf Isaiah 5:20). Many, really do not know what they are doing. Let us pray that the Lord grant them wisdom to truly know the difference.

      • Elizabeth

        Amen.

        • LizEst

          There’s another one out there, too, that some HDL devotees are gravitating to: “Maria Divine Mercy” or MDM. I just looked at some of the messages and one of them has Jesus telling people to redeem themselves in his eyes. Here’s the site: http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/home/

          • 3221

            What do you do? Troll the internet for apparitions to mock?

          • LizEst

            You are too funny 3221! Ha! It was sent to us by an HML devotee! And no, I am not mocking this, that stuff about “Jesus telling people to redeem themselves in his eyes” is actually in one of the “messages” of MDM. We don’t redeem ourselves. Christ has done that for us.

  • Elizabeth

    A quick glance through the more recent “messages” provide several excellent examples on the question of authority and the fact that Jesus or Mary would never, ever, ask for you all to be disobedient to His Church. Here are just a few of the more glaring examples, along with the dates they were stated so you can read them in full. People, please do the research. Look at all the approved apparitions throughout the centuries. In absolutely no instance will you find calls to disobey the Church or Church leaders, or words that ask for adherence to a particular “apparition” site.

    (11/27/12-ST. JOAN OF ARC)
    “Please understand that I speak to you as one martyred for the Truth of private revelation despite evidence to the contrary. You should fear anyone who will not acknowledge their errors especially if they hold persuasion over many hearts. Much private revelation which is worthy and poignant to these harrowing times is being subdued by erroneous – even rash judgments.”

    “Such is the case here in this Mission which I have come to defend. Do not be tricked into overlooking the abundant harvest of grace here. The graces are always here despite controversies fanned by falsehoods.”
    ************************************

    (11/24/12-BLESSED VIRGIN MARY)
    “……..Jesus would embrace this Mission and would never discourage people from coming here to pray. Jesus sees this Mission as a support – not a detriment to organized religion.”

    “Please be at peace in your decision to be a part of this Mission. Do not come here because others approve or stay away because someone may disapprove. Just come here out of love. Be Holy Love as My Son was Holy Love in the world.”
    **************************************

    (11/18/12-BLESSED VIRGIN MARY)
    “In the case of this particular apparition, no legitimate investigation was ever done. Proper procedures were disregarded, just as they were in the closing of the 50 Churches. It is fair to say, going through the motions to achieve the end so much desired on an official level, was the order of the day.”

    “None of this alters the Truth of this Mission. It is the same, the salvation of souls, a goal that should readily be embraced by all. I do not come for My welfare but for your own. I do not speak for the sake of speaking but to instruct and guide.”

    “If you choose not to listen, the future does not bode well for your country or for you yourselves. Pray against the cowardice of false discernment. Believe.”

    ***********************************************

    (10/14/12-JESUS)
    “Today, I have come to ask your total detachment from the opinions of others. This is a great test of humility. When others disapprove of your participation here, remember – Heaven approves. When some speak out against the Messages, keep in mind they oppose Heaven’s words.”

    “To live this way is to advance through the Chambers of the United Hearts. You increase in holiness when your relationship with Me is such that you seek only to please Me. These Messages are like food for the soul. You must digest them for any positive effect. Some take them in but then spit them out – never assimilating them. These are the ones that do not allow the Messages to affect their spiritual well-being.”

    Whew! And that’s just the very recent stuff. This kind of subtle and not-so-subtle message has been going on for decades at this place, slowly infecting the minds and hearts, the SOULS of Catholics.

    • denis renaud

      I guess you have never heard of Joan of Arc, who was condemned by the Chuch authorities. Do you still believe as the authorities thought they did, that Joan’s voices were from the devil? Using your logic Joan was wrong for not denying her voices. No, only the Pope has the right to declare something infallibly worthy or not worthy of belief. Bishops, as in the case of England, have led entire countries astray…Our belief is in Christ and his Church, not in the changing opinions of bishops.

      • Elizabeth

        @denis: Well yes, of course I’ve “heard of Joan of Arc”. However, it’s my understanding that St. Joan refused to lie by saying that she was not hearing voices. She refused to recant that she was hearing voices directing her to do such and such. But that’s neither here nor there.

        Using St. Joan of Arc as an example would be an arguing point if we were discussing Maureen Sweeney-Kyle, the supposed visionary, but we’re not talking about her. We’re talking about disobedience as it pertains to the laity who go to Holy Love after the Bishop has condemned and admonished the faithful to cease visiting the place.

        • LizEst

          Excellent points Elizabeth. Keep up the good work!…oh, and a Blessed and Happy New Year to you and yours. God bless you!

        • 3221

          An admonishment is not an act of condemnation, nor does it indicate disobedience. Medjugorie is now being examined by the Vatican, well after the local bishop (Bishop Zanic) stated that there was nothing supernatural occuring. He too admonished people to stay away from it. Nor is the Vatican admonishing pilgrims fror ‘disobeying’ their bishop.

        • denis renaud

          The logic is the same. Using your logic St. Joan was obliged to deny her voices, just as you assume that the faithful are obliged to not visit Holy Love. The question of the Truth of the apparitions is more important than the opinion of a bishop. If the apparatitions turn out to be true then you will have ignored them for a false reason, which does not seem to bother you.

  • Kevin Symonds

    It both surprises me and saddens me to see HLM defenders remain adamant that somehow Lennon’s Decree was only a “warning.”

    This is simply not the case.

    The Decree states specifically that Lennon reviewed the theology behind HLM, consulted a theological expert, was “directed” by the Holy See to act “definitively” on this matter and then declared the claims to be “constat de non supernaturalitate.”

    To argue against common sense is ridiculous. Again, I present the Decree for all to read:

    http://www.dioceseofcleveland.org/news/2009/Holy%20Love%20-%20Decree%20in%20English%20-%202009-11-11.pdf

    No other citations are necessary. The Decree has all the right elements.

    • 3221

      The ‘decree’ uses the word ‘warning’ becasue that it what it is–a warning not a formal command to obey.

  • Elizabeth

    I’ve just read through 12 or so replies by 3221 commenter here and am astounded and saddened. At the risk of sounding condescending, in our Charity I’d like to suggest that we all say a Hail Mary for her/him. I feel this person is a prime example of almost a brainwashing of sorts. Please read the few quotes of some recent messages from HL in my post just before Kevin’s recent post. The messages quoted by Jesus, Mary, and St. Joan of Arc seem to have really taken hold of this person (and so many others).

    • LizEst

      Done!

    • 3221

      I would advise you, as St Catherine of Siena was advised by God the Father–not at HLM but in her Dialogues, which is a mystical classic of Catholicism—, to keep your interior life within the circle of God and self-knowledge.
      The condescending judgments made by those in this correspondence who deride HLM are very pronounced. I will pray for you too, Elizabeth, as well as for all those who doggedly insist on mocking and maligning HLM..

  • Elizabeth

    God bless you all and may you have a joyous and grace-filled Advent and wondrous Christmas.

    • LizEst

      Thank you…and God bless you and yours Elizabeth, and all readers here, with a Blessed Advent and Christmas season, as well.

  • http://www.schefter.org/ PrairieHawk

    I’m new to the conversation but I’m just wondering, why would you do something your bishop (shepherd) has admonished you not to? There are a zillion ways to grow in the faith. Try Eucharistic adoration (it’s the same Eucharist everywhere), praying the Liturgy of the Hours, or spending a few minutes every morning in contemplation of Scripture. There is absolutely no reason to invest yourself in questionable devotions. If the bishop says don’t, have enough respect for him to obey. That’s all I’m going to say, as I watch this conversation unfold with disbelief.

    • LizEst

      Thanks, PrairieHawk, for your comments. All wonderful recommendations. God bless you…and Blessed Advent!

  • LizEst

    Lest this get buried below, here is my response to 3221 re the “condemnation” of the Bayside events. Some just cannot get their facts straight!

    3221 – You are absolutely wrong. The Bishop’s decree against the
    so-called apparitions at Bayside (Vernoica Leuken) never uses the word
    “condemned.” It says no credibility can be given. I just read the
    whole thing and so can anyone else who wishes to read it: http://www.ewtn.com/Library/NEWAGE/MUGABAY.TXT

    • 3221

      No bishop could ever level the charge ‘no credibility can be given’ at HLM because the theology is so very sound.and Catholic.

  • Tarheel

    Very informative. Do you have information or thoughts about the apparitions that supposedly occur at the site in Alabama?

    • LizEst

      What site is this? Is this something current? Or, is this something that happened in the past?

  • LizEst

    To those who were curious, I have received a response from “The Wanderer” to my request for the citation in their publication that would verify the statement that 3221 said he/she read in “The Wanderer” (posted elsewhere in these comments as: “Mother Teresa and her sisters refused to sit after they had received the Holy Eucharist when their bishop specifically reprimanded them and told them to do so. Mother Teresa replied that, if their kneeling was a problem, they would leave the diocese. Needless to say, he backed down.”).

    This is what “The Wanderer” said in response to my request for the citation: “Thanks for your question, but The Wanderer is not indexed and we have no recollection of such a story, and so we cannot verify it for you.”

    I have also contacted the Mother Teresa Center and am waiting for their response. Thought you would like to know.

    • Elizabeth

      Thanks, LizEst. Good luck with your efforts here. I finally had enough and decided to sit back and just read the comments others make, such as yourself, as you continue trying the impregnate the wall of resistance. Hang in there!

      • LizEst

        Thanks, Elizabeth! Yeah, I’m not posting much anymore. Just trying to tie up a few loose ends. Am also not responding to a number that shall go nameless! Though I’m not overly fond of such, I do find the work of research and fact checking beneficial to building apologetical muscle. For that, I am very grateful. God bless you Elizabeth.

        • 3221

          Oh, so you are not going to respond to the explanations I made regarding your accusations of heresy? I would say this smacks of resistance to the truth, for those messages all deal with the deep fundamental truths of Catholic mystical theology. Your interpretations of HLM messages are very confused and you exhibit grave misunderstandings of Catholic theology. I sincerely hope that you consult an orthodox priest about what I wrote in response to your points.

    • 3221

      Whether or not you can find the source, it is a true a account. What? Nothing to say about all the points I made about your so-called heretical excerpts from HLM? When will you respond those?

  • LizEst

    …and let us pray for all those affected by the shooting in Connecticut today. Have mercy, Lord, have mercy!

    • Elizabeth

      Yes, LizEst! Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. May they rest in peace. And may their souls and the souls of all the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.

  • Harry Flynn

    There is a consistent argument in these comments concerning the nature of “condemnation” from “admonish/warn.” I think it is necessary to delve into this matter.

    The argument is as follows: Bishop Lennon only “admonishes” the faithful from going to HLM. Since he does not “forbid” it, people can therefore go and it also means HLM is not “condemned.”

    If one reads Lennon’s Decree carefully, there is a LOT more going on in it than how some are arguing it.

    First of note concerns the structure of the Decree. Lennon opens up with a note on his responsibility as the Ordinary of the place. Lennon then cites the desire of the Holy See for Lennon to act “definitively” on this matter. Following closely upon this is a statement on how Lennon proceeded in reviewing the case.

    After the above comes specific rulings in 4 parts (conveniently numbered):

    1) Lennon declares Sweeney-Kyle’s claims to be “not supernatural in origin”.

    2) Clergy are forbidden to celebrate the Sacraments on HLM grounds.

    3) The faithful in the Diocese of Cleveland are “admonished” against gathering for functions (presumably held by HLM) on HLM property.

    4) An HLM organization may not use the name “Catholic” and is not approved by Lennon.

    In light of the above information, the “admonish vs. forbidding” argument is a red herring.

    Lennon has “definitively” declared Sweeney-Kyle’s claims to be not from God. Now the whole purpose of going to HLM is predicated upon the belief the claims come from God. Since there appears to be no dispute of this part of Lennon’s Decree (at least insofar as the arguments have gone in these comments), what is the premise for going to HLM?

    In the case someone wishes to continue with the red-herring that is the “admonishing vs. forbidding” argument, consider carefully the canons that Bishop Lennon cites in that clause of the Decree. He cites canons 212 and 214. These canons are as follows:

    ~~
    Can. 212 §1.
    Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to
    follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch
    as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as
    rulers of the Church.

    §3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

    Can. 214 The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescripts of their own rite approved by the legitimate pastors of the Church and to follow their own form of spiritual life so long as it is consonant with the doctrine
    of the Church.

    Source:
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PU.HTM
    ~~

    In light of the above canons and the Christian obedience they speak of, whether it was a simple “warning” or explicit order “forbidding” people to go to HLM is irrelevant. People are bound to obey Lennon’s directives.

    The claims are not supernatural in origin–thus says Lennon (and apparently the Holy See). Without a supernatural character, one does not have any reason to go to HLM.

    • Mary Kochan

      And that is the last word.

      • 3221

        No, Mary it is NOT the last word. Bishop Zanec of Medjugorie fame, warned (read admonished) the laity about going to that apparition site. Now the Vatican is discerning Medjugorie and no one has accused (or admonished) those who go there, nor told them to cease and desist. Bishop Zanec’s ‘warning’ comes to nothing. It was indeed not the last word about Medjugorie. Bishop Lennon’s is not the last word about HLM either.

        • Elizabeth

          @3221: Why are you changing the subject to Medjugorje? That’s not the topic of this thread. Medjugorje has nothing to do with Holy Love.

          • 3221

            Medjugorie is related to HLM because both are unapproved apparition sites. The relevance of Merdjugorie to HLM is that the local bishop of Medjugorie DISAPPROVED of it as did Bishop Lennon of HLM. The big argument against those who continue to attend HLM is that they are ‘disobeying’ Bishop Lernnon. Medjugorie followers did the same with Bishop Zanic there. No one at the Vatican has in any way accused Medjugorie followers of being ‘disobedient’ even though they continued to follow Medjugorie despite Bishop Zanic’s disapproval of it. Nor did the Vatican assume that Bishop Zanic’s discernment was correct simply because he was the local bishop. Instead they gave the Medjugorie question to an independent committee. Now it is out of the committee’s hands and being investigated by the Vatican itself. Zanic’s decision according to the Vatican, was not definitive in any way. In the same way Lennon’s decision is not definitive either. The argument that HLM followers are ‘disobedient’ to Bishop Lennon does not hold up when you look at the procedures happening with an other unapproved appartion site. (Medjugorie). This is what HLM has to do with Medjugorie.

        • http://www.schefter.org/ PrairieHawk

          “We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides.” –St. Ignatius of Loyola

          • 3221

            I refer you to what I just shared with ‘Elizabeth. St. Ignatius is referring to the Magisterium, which is the definitive authority of the Catholic Church. The local bishop is not final word on apparition sites and their approval. It is naive and foolish to assume something so shallow as to call one bishop’s ‘discernment’ the Voice of the Church itself.. Bishop Zanic, local bishop of Mejugorie, disapproved of that apparition, and the Vatican disregarded his discernmemt completely and instead handed over the decision to a committee. Then the issue was handed over to the Vatican itself. Do not take what St. Ignatius says out of context. One local bishop is not the definitive word on an apparition site, nor does it denote the definitive decision of the Catholic Church hierarchy.

  • Elizabeth

    @LizEst and Kevin: I’ve been sitting back and just reading your comments and the replies of 3221. I admire your fortitude! I noticed that the conversation is stuck on the Bishop’s wording, etc. and offer these thoughts.

    3221 believes that “St. Thomas Aquinas” told them all on 11/17/09 (after Bishop Lennon’s Decree): “The ‘decree’ set forth by your bishop concerning participation in this Mission here was presented as though it carried with it the charge of blind obedience. It did not. The words were cleverly chosen. An admonition is not a dictate.”

    3221 believes that the “Blessed Virgin Mary” told them all on 11/18/09 (after Bishop Lennon’s Decree): “In the case of this particular apparition, no legitimate investigation was ever done. Proper procedures were disregarded…” And then “Our Lady” goes even further and warns them/scares them of bad things to come if they don’t continue to come to Holy Love: “If you choose not to listen, the future does not bode well for your country or for you yourselves.”

    3221 believes that “St. Catherine of Sienna” told them all on 11/18/09 (after Bishop Lennon’s Decree): “Do not be fooled to believe you are not allowed to come.”

    3221 believes that “Jesus Himself said on 11/13/09 (after Bishop Lennon’s Decree): “My brothers and sisters, you must not place OFFICE and AUTHORITY and TITLE above the TRUTH.”

    3221 believes that “St. Joan of Arc” told them all on 11/17/12: “Much private revelation which is worthy and poignant to these harrowing times is being subdued by erroneous – even rash judgments….Such is the case here in this Mission which I have come to defend.”

    3221 believes that “Jesus” told them all on 10/14/12: “I have come to ask your total detachment from the opinions of others. This is a great test of humility. When others disapprove of your participation here, remember – Heaven approves….You increase in holiness when your relationship with Me is such that you seek only to please Me.”

    ———————————

    I think there’s a few things going on here with this person.

    1) S/he doesn’t believe that the Bishop actually has condemned the site, therefore,

    2) s/he doesn’t believe that s/he owes obedience to the Bishop. But I suspect that if the Bishop had used whatever wording this person thinks are proper for a condemnation, s/he still would refuse to obey him because,

    3) s/he firmly believes that s/he is hearing the actual words of the saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Jesus, and God the Father. I think that this third point is the crux of it all for this person (and others that continue to go to the site). For in their minds, these “statements” are as real as the day is long.

    How does one fight with that kind of delusion? If someone has come to this point, has no internal red flags upon hearing any of these “messages”, it follows that they wouldn’t care what the Bishop has to say. After all, you have the saints, Our Lady, Jesus and God the Father telling them that they MUST continue to come, that the Bishop didn’t follow ‘proper procedures’ (good grief), that the Bishop is wrong…..on and on.

    I don’t know how to accomplish it, but this is where the problem lies., in my opinion. To convince this person that these “messages” aren’t coming from “Heaven”. How to do this ~ your guess is as good as mine!

    Good luck! I’ll keep watching.

    • Kevin Symonds

      That 3221 was arguing from the satanic messages of HLM was apparent given his/her fierceness.

  • http://www.casorosendi.com/ Carlos Caso-Rosendi

    Be aware that there are those who tolerate the followers of HL to display objects, “holy” water, and such in the midst of allegedly Catholic ministries. I have seen that more than once with my own eyes, I have seen priests take parishioners on a long trip to visit that abomination. False prophets are among us. Be VERY alert.

    • LizEst

      Gracias Carlos! Thank you. We must be vigilant always. God bless you. Que Dios te bendiga.

      ps. I took a quick look at your blog. Very interesting and impressive.

      pps. You may enjoy this one: http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/

      • http://www.casorosendi.com/ Carlos Caso-Rosendi

        Thanks. I did not know rcspiritualdirection I have casorosendi.com (various languages) and primeraluz.org (Spanish only) lately many of my articles are being published in Brazil for some reason, so the Portuguese section is likely to grow a bit.

        • LizEst

          Veo que tienes un link para EWTN en su sitio primeraluz.org. El sitio rcspiritualdirection.com fue fundado por Dan Burke, quien trabaja para EWTN y es director ejecutivo del National Catholic Register (periodico de EWTN). Este sitio tambien tiene articulos del famoso Padre Fortea, exorcista en espana.

          Translation for other readers: (I see you have a link to EWTN on your site primeraluz.org. The rcspiritualdirection site was founded by Dan Burke, who works for EWTN and is executive editor of National Catholic Register – EWTN newspaper. This site also has articles by the famous Spanish exorcist Father Fortea.)

          • http://www.casorosendi.com/ Carlos Caso-Rosendi

            Thank you, Liz. No need to write in Spanish but if you want to practice it’s OK. :o) I have lived in the US for a long time–currently I am in Argentina for a while–I was received in the Church in the UK so my general Catholic sense is a bit “English” which is good.

          • LizEst

            Me gusta practicar…tambien, es una avenida para los que no pueden entender el ingles bien.

            Translation: I like to practice…it’s also an avenue for those who cannot understand the English well.

  • 3221

    I do notknow how to make this be printed

  • 3221

    O Come! Let Us Adore Him!

    Hi Patti,

    First, I would like to thank you for the sincere and humble tone of your article. It is clear to me that you are sincerely searching for the truth, and that you in no way harbor contemptuous mockery in your heart toward those who have found spiritual strength and guidance at Holy Love Ministries. Secondly, I wold like to clarify my own position regarding this apparition site. I am in no way affiliated with it. In the past ten years I have been there twice. Neither am I drawn to apparition sites perse–even if I sense that they are authentic.Apparitions–even if genuine–do not fortify the Faith that God has given to me. I was schooled in the true pristine doctrine, Tradition, sacramental understandings of our Catholic Faith, as well as in Scriptural knowledge and interpretation in the Catholic Tradition long before distortions and errors permeated Catholic catechesis as a result of the misinterpretations and distortions of the Second Vatican Council. I know my Catholic Faith well in all its purity, its beauty, and its authentic mystical depth. I love it deeply, for it has led me to know God, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world so that I may be happy with Him in the next.

    What draws me to defend Holy Love Ministries, and which motivates me to write to you, is that I see there full, authentic Catholic doctrine–and a depth presentation of that doctrine–promulgated there. This in an age when the authentic doctrine of the Catholic Church is slowly dying out, when two generations of Catholics have been deprived of the true doctrine and knowledge that is the Revelation of the Word of God, our Savior Jesus Christ. 80% of Catholics today do not understand Who the Holy Eucharist is. They do not comprehend the reality of sin–they have never been taught it–and, consequently, they see no need for the magnificent sacrament of Confession. The treasure of Holy Love Ministries is that it is teaching the fullness of the Catholic Faith, and this is in opposition to what continues to happen–or rather not happen–in most Catholic dioceses of the United States.

    Reading te comments of those who responded to your article gives evidence of the very poor understanding of the mystical theology of the Catholic Faith, as well as an unbalanced and distorted comprehension of what the virtue of obedience is, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church. The primary sticking point of those who oppose–deem false–Holy Love Ministries is, ‘Mary would never lead the faithful to ‘disobey’ legitimate ecclesiastical authority–namely bishop Lennon, Bishop of the Cleveland Diocese. For this reason, in preparation for writing to you, I did some research on the Catholic understanding of teh virtue of obedience. My sources of reference are the great St. Thomas of Aquinas and the highly-esteemed orthodox theologian, Deitrich von Hildebrand, called by Pope Pius X11 a ’20th century Doctor of the Church. Lest I be accused of quoting Thomas of Aquinas from the messages of Holy Love, let me assure you that I used only his words and ideas from his great work the Summa theologica. I found all my references on the orhtodox website, Catholic Apologetics, which can be googled on the internet.

    What I discovered about the virtue of obedience from both of these eminently reliable sources surprised even me, although my instincts led me in this direction. Let me begin by quoting St. Thomas of Aquinas from the Summa:

    Obedience is a part of justice, one of the four cardinal virtues, which

    are, in turn, subordinate to the theological virtues of Faith, Hope and

    Charity. Faith is greater than obedience. If obedience acts to harm

    Faith, the a Catholic has a duty not to obey his Superiors. Now, some-

    the things commanded by a Superior are against God. Therefore, a

    Superior is not to be obeyed in all things. (Summa Theologica 11-11Q.104)

    St. Thomas goes on to say we fail in obedience when we fall prey to imbalance in one of two ways: either by defect–which is a refusal to obey a legitimate comm command, or by excess –which is an ‘obedience-no-matter-what’. attitude. This latter is considered a false obedience.

    As quoted in the Summa, here are some errors in thinking which underlie false obedience, that is, obedience through excess:

    (1) Church hierarchy is absolute. Obedience has no limits.

    (2) The Pope is infallible in all he says and does.

    (3) I may never criticize any Superior under any circumstances.

    (4) I will obey bishops or priests even when they disobey God by forsaking the

    Tradition of the Church.

    (5) Whoever protests against anything a Church prelate does or says is disloyal

    to the Church.

    (6) Even unjust or improper suspensions are legally binding.

    St. Thomas insists that the virtue of obedience must be to the true Faith. Von Hildebrand reiterates this. He even denies that the faithful have a duty of automatic obedience in the present state of the Church. He shows with admirable clarity that the mark of a truly faithful Catholic can be a refusal to submit to heretical or compromising bishops. He states that Catholics can never compromise Faith under the pretext of obedience. In the Summa, Aquinas explains that ‘If the Faith is endangered a subject ought to rebuke his prelate–even publicly.

    At Holy Love Ministries the faithful have an opportunity to learn the true Faith in all its fullness and richness. Catholic mystical theology is lacking most deplorably in so-called catechesis today. If the full Faith is not being taught, then it is endangered. Again, Catholic obedience must always be to the Faith. Let me quote again from Catholic Apologetics:

    ‘Is not fidelity to the true teaching of the Church to be given

    priority over submission to a bishop? asks von Hildebrand.

    ‘Yes, it is,’ replies Thomas of Aquinas together with every

    reputable theologian who has examined the subject.

    (Catholic Apologetics)

    In his examination of Holy Love Ministries, which will be the subject of the next part of this message, Bishop Lennon and his unnamed ‘expert’ did not state any specific distortion or misrepresentation of authentic Catholic doctrine or any Scriptural misinterpretation they found there. They did not because they could not. There are none. Nonetheless, Bishop Lennon and his ‘expert’ have ‘serious concerns’ about Holy Love Ministries for Catholics.

    At Holy Love Ministries the lay faithful have an opportunity to learn the depth mystical theology of Catholicism in all its rich and pristine clarity,as well as in its orthodox consistency, but Bishop Lennon expects ‘obedience’ simple because he is the bishop. He evidently does not realize that learning the full and true Faith as it is given to us by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church takes priority over ‘obedience’ to him. The simple fact is that it is not true that an apparition needs to have approval by a bishop to be believed as authentic by the faithful

    You pointed out in your article, Patti, that Holy Love Ministries ‘seems’ Catholic because the site has statues, rosaries, and Catholic prayers. You neglect to understand–and you really should have understood from your correspondence with those whom you consulted–that danger to the true Faith lurks in a lack of authentic Catholic doctrine,or in Scriptural misinterpretation, not in externals such as rosaries, statues, or vocal prayers. Indeed, it is not about ‘what looks good on the surface’. What must be safeguarded for the faithful is authentic Church teaching and Sacred Scripture being understood properly. It is here that the lens of the Church’s scrutiny must focus its attention in judging Holy Love Ministries.

    What is being overlooked by those who so viciously attack and mock Holy Love Ministries is the unutterable purity of the Catholic doctrine being presented there, as well as the focus on personal holiness which is the call of each of us on this earth. These are the pearls that are consistently in evidence at this apparition site. I have asked repeatedly in the on line conversation, following your article, for others to give to me one line from the messages–just one line–that contradicts the full teaching of the Catholic Faith. This challenge has been met with silence, with the exception of one person who selected some messages and included with them her own explanations as to their heretical content. Both her ignorance of Catholic doctrine, as well as her inability to think clearly became obvious for all to see. I took each of her message selections and showed her that each one was clearly in accord with Catholic doctrine, and I also suggested that she bring my explanations to an orthodox Catholic priest to get guidance from him.

    We have two generations of ill-formed Catholics–due to bishops who have failed Christ badly–who do not know the most fundamental teachings of their Faith,nor do they understand that the virtue of obedience is an obedience to defending the Faith, not the false obedience of unthinking compliance with bishops, especially when those bishops do not have the moral integrity which underpins any true discernment.

    For Bishop Lennon to state in his canonical decree regarding Holy Love Ministries,’…….having reviewed the theological content of the alleged apparitions to Maureen Sweeney-Kyle, and having consulted an expert in this matter, I ….declare the alleged apparitions and locations(I think he means ‘locutions’)…are not supernatural in origin.’ one has to say that he disavows anything ‘supernatural in origin’ in the teachings of the Catholic Faith, for the doctrine of Holy Love Ministries is the full Catholic teaching in all its pristine splendor.’ The clarity and the authenticity of the mystical theology taught there is the Catholic Faith. Given the distortions, the heresies, and the banal humanistic claptrap that passes for Catholic theology in so much of Catholic catechesis today, the full beauty of Catholic Truth in evidence at Holy Love Ministries stands out in bold relief. Defense of Holy Love Ministries is defense of the Catholic Faith. To comply with Bishop Lennon’s decree is a false obedience, for, in ‘admonishing the lay faithful to cease gathering there,’ he is preventing the spread and the teaching of the true orthodox Faith as it has been handed down to us.

    In juxtaposition, does Bishop Lennon have ‘serious concerns’ about ‘Future Church’ which is now operating in his diocese. Has he checked their ‘theological content’? Does he have ‘serious concerns’ about the pro-homosexual movement alive and well in his diocese? Does Bishop Lennon have ‘serious concerns’ about the Catholic churches he unjustly closed, replete with canon law abuses so egregious that Rome overrode his decisions and rebuked him sharply? Does he have ‘serious concerns’ about the personal profits he garnered from the sale of those churches? Does Bishop Lennon have ‘serious concerns’ about his pattern of lying that has been documented from his time in Boston where he participated fully in the cover up of literally thousands of sexual abuse cases and which continued here in Ohio? This is the man whose discernment about Holy Love ministries you want me to trust? Especially when his ‘expert’ remains unnamed and he will not speak about the specifics of his ‘serious concerns’?

    Would our beautiful Blessed Mother ever lead us to ‘disobey’ the bishop? Yes she would, if that bishop loses his authority due to failure to uphold the true Faith. Von Hildebrand is quoted in Catholic Apologetics as stating that ‘when a bishop is not loyal to the true Faith,he loses his authority and does not have to be obeyed.’ He even goes on to cite the various instances where the saints have disobeyed Popes.. ‘The history of the Church gives us several examples where saints, who, in order to remain faithful, have resisted Church authorities, and were even excommunicated. We learn (in Church history) that St. Athanasius disobeyed Pope Liberius, St. Godefrey of Amiens and St. Hughes of Grenoble disobeyed Pope Pascal 11. Then, of course, there is beautiful Joan of Arc who refused to disavow her ‘voices’ when corrupt bishops commanded that she do so.

    We become obedient to the Church and Her officials only when we become obedient to the constant teachings of the Church, as taught by the Magisterium through the ages. If what is taught by an appointed servant of God (bishop, priest, or Pope) is contrary to Catholic teaching, they are not to be obeyed, but even publicly rebuked.(Titus1:10) as they no longer speak on behalf of teh Church but become representatives of their own novelty. (Catholic Apologetics)

    Our Blessed Mother would lead her children to understand that the virtue of obedience–true obedience as opposed to false obedience–is obedience to the true and full Faith, not to a bishop who is preventing that Faith from being learned. The treasure of Holy Love Ministries is that it is teaching the fullness of the Catholic Faith and the depth mystical theology that underpins it. Frankly, unspecified ‘serious concerns’ and an ‘admonishment to cease gathering’ simply because a bishop of questionable integrity and his unnamed ‘expert’ say so, without any specific reasons being given for such a directive, does not constitute authority that should be obeyed.

    Reverend Gary Yanus, Judicial Vicar of the Cleveland Diocese, in his correspondence to you, made reference to Canon 223, which speaks of taking into account the ‘common good of the Church and the obligation of ecclesiastical authority, in view of the common good, to regulate the exercise of the rights of the faithful .’ (Canon 223) The ‘common good’ of the faithful would be protecting any distortion in doctrine, any break in Tradition, or any false interpretations of the Sacred Scriptures. The ‘common good’ of the faithful is to nurture the full knowledge of the true Faith. When bishops fail in their teachings and in safeguarding the fullness of the Faith, they are not to be obeyed so that one may be faithful to the Church. You will find the Church where the true Faith is. Hildebrand says,’If there are only a few persons who belileve the true Faith, they are the Church.’ (Catholic Apologetics)

    The same Faith that is delineated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the same Faith that is being taught at Holy Love Ministries. For once in 40 years the faithful have the opportunity to learn what their bishops should have been teaching them all along. People are hungry for God. They crave to learn how to deepen in union with Him. The Catholics of this country, for long years now, have been denied the full and deep doctrine of the Mass,the sacraments, sin, grace and purgatory. in favor of a humanistic gospel with no sense of the supernatural. In this perverted rendering of the Catholic Faith, man is made the center, and the living God in the Holy Eucharist is shunted to the side, ignored, and forgotten. This humanistic heresy bears no resemblance to the purity of the true Faith that is our patrimony as Catholics. Bishops have allowed these spiritual perversions and they will answer to God for it.

    The people of the Cleveland Diocese fought Bishop Lennon fiercely in order to retrieve parishes sold by him and monies taken by him. They had every right to do what they did. I am fighting for my true Faith of which the bishops of this country are trying to rob me. I will fight to the death for my true Catholic Faith. It is my patrimony from God. No ecclesiastic has the right to water it down, to distort it, to misinterpret it,–purposely or otherwise. No bishop has the right to prevent me or anyone else from gathering at Holy Love Ministries to learn about the full richness of the Catholic Faith and to pray with others who hunger, just as I do, to grow more deeply in union with God.

    The apparitions at LaSalette–approved by the Church–contain a prophecy by Mary that the anti-Christ will sit on the throne of St. Peter in Rome–look it up if you do not believe me. Many bishops today want to create a ‘new church’, one where man is at the center. I keep asking people, ‘What will you do when the Pope (not this one, of course) tells you that the Holy Eucharist is only the living God during the Mass, so please put the remaining hosts in the garbage.’ Then we had better know the difference between true obedience and the false obedience of excess.

    Do you think these many unethical bishops in the Church today–these ravenous wolves who control most of the operations of the NCCB–are going to roll over and play dead when Pope Benedict XV1 goes Home to God? You ask, Patti, ‘When in the history of the Church has the Blessed Mother operated outside of the Church?’ Well, I ask you, ‘When in the history of the Church has the institutional hierarchy so failed to teach and preserve the Faith that 70% of Catholics neither go to Mass nor understand the Real Presence Jesus in the Holy Eucharist?’ When one grasps the heresy and corruption riddling the ‘American Church’ as it is called today, one can well understand Our Mother’s defense of the true Faith by circumventing that corruption through a perfectly legitimate canonical move. Our beautiful Mother is well within the parameters of Catholic Church law. We cannot say that of Bishop Lennon’s canonical record, now can we? Evidently Christ’s Mother knows the difference between true obedience and the false obedience of excess as St. Thomas gives it to us in the Summa , his greatest work. The Mother of God would have her true sons and daughters know the difference too.

    Bigger trials are coming in the future, Patti. I say this from no sense of prophecy. It is just that the handwriting is on the wall for all to see, if they choose to look. It behooves each of us to be fortified in the knowledge of what our Faith really teaches. Loyalty to Christ means loyalty to the fullness of the Faith in its pristine splendor. To be repulsed by Holy Love Ministries is to be repulsed by the true doctrine of the Catholic Faith. It is just that simple. I ask God to bless you and all involved in the conversations about your article.

    • http://www.schefter.org/ PrairieHawk

      I can read St. Thomas too, and you are misreading him. You are presenting one of his objections as the conclusion (“Therefore, a Superior is not to be obeyed in all things”). Here is one of St. Thomas’s conclusions vis-a-vis obedience:

      “Nevertheless man is bound to obey his fellow-man in things that have to be done externally by means of the body: and yet, since by nature all men are equal, he is not bound to obey another man in matters touching the nature of the body, for instance in those relating to the support of his body or the begetting of his children. Wherefore servants are not bound to obey their masters, nor children their parents, in the question of contracting marriage or of remaining in the state of virginity or the like. But in matters concerning the disposal of actions and human affairs, a subject is bound to obey his superior within the sphere of his authority; for instance a soldier must obey his general in matters relating to war, a servant his master in matters touching the execution of the duties of his service, a son his father in matters relating to the conduct of his life and the care of the household; and so forth” (Second part of the second part, Question 104, Article 5, “I answer that”, http://www.newadvent.org).

      The Bishop’s subjects (you and me) are bound to obey him “within the sphere of his authority.” Are you actually claiming that the Bishop of his diocese has no authority to declare whether a place is operating within the Catholic faith? Are you saying that when the Bishop says, “Don’t go there,” he is acting outside his sphere of authority? It all seems very clear to me.

      The answer to this problem for faithful Catholics is to obey their Bishop, stop going to Holy Love Ministries, and pray. If the place is truly Catholic then the truth will out, as it has for every genuine apparition in Church history. Until and unless that happens, people are endangering their souls by going there.

      May God bless you and your family this Christmas season.

      • 3221

        Come, Lord Jesus!
        PrairieHawk,
        I am indeed saying that Bishop Lennon’s ‘admonishment is unjust, and, St Thomas instructs, unjust orders are not legally binding. The bishop is obligated to teach what exactly is wrong at Holy Love Ministries, and he does not because he cannot. There are no errors there. All you need is a catechism to figure it out. St. Thomas is perfectly clear and I have not misread him. Loyalty to the true Faith comes before obedience to a bishop who is not teaching the full Faith. The one place I can go today to be instructed in the depth of the Catholic Faith is Holy Love Ministries. You go right along and ‘obey your bishop ;no matter what’ and see where it leads you. As St. Thomas says, ‘Those who obey in excess are headed for a great fall.’

        • http://www.schefter.org/ PrairieHawk

          I am not going to argue. May God be with you; I’ve said all I have to say.

          • Elizabeth

            3221 is a goner and is a member of the Holy Love Church. Kind of frightening. I pray for friends of mine that also are addicted to the place and see nothing odd, no internal warnings at all, let alone disobeying the Bishop. Merry Christmas to all.

          • Kevin Symonds

            Lennon’s condemnation is not unjust. 3221, have you actually studied the Church’s theology of private revelation?

            Are you aware that sometimes the local Ordinary does not publicize reasons for his condemnation of a case because they are personal or private in nature? Read: sometimes it could do grave harm to someone’s reputation.

            Now, unless you can prove Lennon is not doing this here, you have no grounds to say “Lennon doesn’t tell us his reasons, thus his Decree is unjust.”

          • 3221

            I do say his decree is unjust. Catechesis in the ‘American Church’ are heretical and distorted. Look at the fruits of the bishops’ catechesis for the last 40 years. Holy Love is teaching what the bishops should be teaching. Bishop Lennon has no right to prevent those who want to learn their Faith from attending Holy Love.

          • Kevin Symonds

            I begin to see much more clearly the pernicious vice that has heretofore arisen in this discussion.

            It is called bitterness. I will also add anger.

            Otherwise well meaning people are disenchanted by a perception of a lack of people fulfilling their office(s). So much so that when one such person DOES fulfill his office, the immediate outcry arises from a cancer that lays below.

            I believe Fr. James McManus had some words about this phenomenon amongst “traditionalists.” May I suggest him to all interested parties?

            No one, absolutely NO ONE has been able to provide any evidence that Bishop Lennon is a heresiarch. Insinuations have been made, and without one shred of proof. That, friends, is calumny (as it was in print) and character assassination–SIN.

            Does anyone really expect a well-minded, faithful Catholic to accept HLM upon such a foundation?

            Secondly, there appears to be a contradiction. How is it possible, if HLM is an “ecumenical” group, to teach CATHOLIC doctrine and not be under the local Ordinary? Again, I reiterate something said above: the law of non-contradiction still stands.

          • 3221

            One does not need to be ‘under the local ordinary’ to teach the Faith. Catholic doctrine is Catholic doctrine. You are very misinformed if you think that one needs to be ‘under the local ordinary’ to share the Truth of God. Bishop Lennon has not taught his people just exactly WHAT is offensive in HLM. He does not because there are no grounds for him to do so. In preventing the faithful from going there, he is thwarting the spread of the true Faith in an age where there are few places to get it. This is putting his ecclesiatical power before the spread of the Gospel. True obedience is to the Faith.

            Let me tell you something else, Kevin. While you are diddling with proper canonical procedure about apparition sites, the Faith will be completely lost. Most of the people who attend Mass now are elderly. They know what the Faith is, but soon God will bring them to Heaven. Most young people do not really understand the supernatural dimension of Catholicism. This is not to understand it at all. Even those who attend Mass do not really know the Faith. It is clear form reading the comments here that most of those who are commenting are very mixed.up. ‘Elizabeth’ thinks HLM is a ‘Church’, thereby giving evidence of her complete ignorance of the interior life of grace. Anyone born after 1965 has been raised on the pablum of a distorted humanistic gospel the bishops have been spreading for 40 years or more..They intend to finish the job. Yes there are good orthodox bishops, but soon they will have to disassociate themselves from the corruption of the USCCB. this will be hard, but it will be the only way not to participate in the constant deception in which that corrupt body engages.

            As far as being angry or bitter, as I have said, we see in others what we ourselves are. The judgments of people’s that are a constant in comments on this site again prove just how lacking in the true Faith the commentators on this site are.

          • Elizabeth

            @3221: You poor woman or man. I will offer my prayers at Mass tomorrow for you.

          • 3221

            I appreciate that, Elizabeth, and I ask God to bless you.

          • LizEst

            Would you add to your intentions, please, that 3221 refrain from using such vulgar language as 3221 used above “Let me tell you something else, Kevin, while you are d_______ with proper canonical procedure…”? Thanks. There is no call for using vulgarities here. It’s crass and is considered swearing by some.

          • 3221

            Madame, ‘diddling’ means only ‘to fool with’ if you are some how attributing masturbation to my use of the word, it tells me where your mind is. I do not think in those terms, and so my use of the word was totally innocent..

          • 3221

            It is nice to know that you are still reading my posts even though you are unable to engage me.

          • Kevin Symonds

            You see, you just do not get it. NO legitimate apparition in the history of the Catholic Church has EVER told/ordered/directed someone to go outside of the authority of the Church in order to make itself known.

            None, 3221, none at all. It is outside of the Church’s teaching and practice and nothing more. God does not act this way with His Church.

            The above is justification enough for Lennon to issue his Decree as Sweeney-Kyle preaches a different Gospel.

            These are the last words I will address to you.

          • 3221

            In the first place, Kevin, the state of corruption in the Church makes it almost impossible for the true Faith to be allowed to be spoken. Secondly, the Blessed Mother has acted through a perfectly legitimate canonical move. She has not acted beyond canon law. She has acted within canon law. This is why Bishop Lennon cannot excommunicate those Catholics who find spiritual sustenance at HLM. If he could, I am sure he would.
            You spoke earlier of ‘no proof that Bishop Lennon is heretical’. The free operation of ‘Future Church’ , without any interference by Bishop Lennon, is only one proof. Remaining silent in the face of heresy is one way to be heretical. This is according to St. Thomas Aquinas. There is a you tube video on the internet formulated by Lennon’s Cleveland flock. It is called ‘Bishop Diaries’ and it is quite informative at to what is going on in the Cleveland diocese. In that video, attorney Charles Feliciano, diocesan lawyer for the Cleveland Diocese for many years, goes so far as to allude to ‘murder not being beyond what this bishop and his minions would do.’ He has first hand experience of Bishop Lennon’s illegal and immoral practices and deeds. This Vatican overrode Lennon’s gross and unethical use of Diocesan properties and monies. He was cited for canon law violations so egregious that he was severely rebuked by Rome. His pattern of lying is well-documented since the Boston homosexual scandal of which he played a central part. He has continued this pattern in Boston.
            Finally, you assume that since God has never done before what He is doing at HLM, it is proof that he would not do it ever. You do not know what God would do. He is not bound by Church law or by your unimaginative assessment of what He would do. You also are so obsessed with Church law that you are missing what the Church is suffering.. Again, I learned this from Aquinas, The Church is where the true Faith is. When that Faith is diluted, distorted, and/or not taught, you no longer have the true Church. You may have the trappings of it, but the Church is where the true Faith is taught, preserved, and nurtured in God and for God in order to lead us to God.. You keep following your canon law rule book, and you will still be studying it when the Church is underground and Mass is no longer available, nor the Holy Eucharist worshiped and LOVED in the institutional Church. At that time, each priest, bishop, cardinal, pope. religious sister and lay person will have to answer the question, ‘Who am I serving? ‘ You won’t be asking that question. You will be looking for a canon law to cover the situation. You are missing the forest for the trees.
            You said before that you were finished writing to me, but you have not been consistent with what you decided in an earlier post. You also accused me of being angry and bitter, but it is you yourself who referred to me as an ‘idiot’ in an earlier post. When one resorts to name calling, it is a clear sign of hostility aimed at one’s opponent. I am so sorry that I so disturb your peace. You do not disturb mine at all. Have a very blessed Christmas, Kevin.

          • 3221

            The Church is where the full Catholic Faith is being taught and upheld. ‘ When a bishop does not uphold the true Faith’, ac cording to Deitrich von Hildebrand, ‘he loses his authority to represent the Church, and instead represents his own novelty.’ He continues to explain that those Catholic who oppose heretical bishops are the true members of the Church. Evidently you are one of the many who does not know what the Catholic Church teaches.

  • Kevin Symonds

    LizEst:

    I do not often agree with Ron Conte over on Catholic Planet, but he does have a reference page on his site concerning Maureen Sweeney-Kyle and HLM. He provides a link to the following story that you might find interesting:

    http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/blessed-other/Content?oid=1472603

    Perhaps Bishop Lennon had something like the above in mind when he condemned S-K’s claims?

    • LizEst

      Wow, is that ever an expose! I didn’t read the whole thing but scanned it. I think this puts the HLM in even greater disrepute. Thanks Kevin. Very interesting.

      • 3221

        This tells me the depth of your discernment if you see the piece that Kevin cited as worthwhile. It is a gossip piece such as you read about movie stars.

    • 3221

      If the piece you cited in your comment above is the level of Bishop Lennon’s discernment, it gives evidence of just how corrupt he is. This is a gossip piece with nothing related to the doctrine of the Catholic Church or its Scriptural interpretation. These would be the criteria of a true discernment and judgment..

  • LizEst

    Blessed and Merry Christmas!

    • Elizabeth

      And to you and your loved ones.

      • LizEst

        Thank you Elizabeth.

        O Holy Night by Josh Groban:

  • Elizabeth

    This morning I was reading about the first Marian apparition in the U.S. approved by the Church. I’d not heard of it ~ Our Lady of Good Help ~ in Wisconsin. A young woman in 1858 received 3 visitations from Our Lady. Very interesting; I’d like to visit it someday since it’s relatively close to me.

    At one point during the investigations, “Bishop Melcher commanded Sister Adele to close the school and the Chapel, and bring him the keys to both. After accomplishing the safe return home of her students, and after buying an acre of land near the Chapel to build a home to continue her commissioned duty to Our Lady, Sister Adele obeyed the Bishop’s command.” OBEYED THE BISHOP’S COMMAND. Sister Adele cautioned the Bishop that “he would be responsible for the souls lost due to the lack of proper religious instruction.” But she obeyed the Bishop’s command.

    It was officially approved on December 8, 2010.

    http://www.shrineofourladyofgoodhelp.com/htmPages/g_hst_p3.html

    • LizEst

      Exactly. Thank you for posting that. I had heard of this before. Obedience is how Christ won eternal life for us. He was obedient even to death on the cross…and where He is, there also will His servant be. All would be wise to remember those words.

    • 3221

      Elizabeth, Our Blessed Mother at HLM had every right to do what she did. She is within the parameters of canon law.

  • Elizabeth

    Here’s a good article from the the Catholic Herald in the U.K. about Marian apparitions and disobedience. Well worth the read.

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/02/11/medjugorje-is-generating-what-the-devil-loves-most-disobedience/

    • LizEst

      Excellent article. Thanks Elizabeth.

  • denis renaud

    It behooves us all to remember that Joan of Arc, now Saint Joan, was condemned by the bishops to eternal flames for believing in a false appartition. . By the logic used here, since Joan was disobedient for continuing to claim her apparitions were real, and so she was in the wrong for listening to demonic voices. Guess who turnd out to be right in the end? The Church authorities were WRONG. They lacked the faith and humility that Joan had. Such is the case with Holy Love.

  • J.

    I know of an alleged visionary (I think he’s the real deal!) who lives about an hour away from me. He was very obedient to his Bishop despite the fact that the local diocese really handled the whole situation poorly. Our Lady gave messages for priests and there were many conversions and charisms. This man continues to remain obedient and does not publicly discuss his mystical experiences with Christ and the Blessed Mother. I really was so interested and even moved by Holy Love after I read “Heaven’s Last Call” but regardless of all the inspirational messages, sacramentals, and devotions I had to step back after reading the more recent alleged messages disregarding local Church authority. Our Lord and His Mother lead us into the Church, not away. Every message mentiones “Holy Love, Holy Love, Truth, etc”., I am very cautious and disheartened.

  • Katerina

    Thank you so much for writing this and for all those who allow this to be easily found. Having visited the site unknowingly on a pilgrimage with my Mom (who had been invited by her friends who’s parish was going and invited me rather nonchalantly; read, she didn’t even bother asking where we would go). It was a strange experience overall. To be honest, I tried my best to fully experience the site (however, I was already in a sour mood due to lack of sleep). I genuinely did believe that I was at a legitimate site and thus prayed earnestly. Upon reflection through your article, I realized that this wholly supports a lot of my experience. Graciously, the Holy Spirit granted me the wisdom to recognize that places are not the source of my faith nor do I rely on them but rather I approached in much the same non-committal demeanor as you – with a prudent hope. I realize I did not know nor could I have ever guessed but I do feel ashamed to have offended by being ignorant. I now know to actively discern these things and what to look for. Once again, thank you for your witness and speaking boldly and clearly for the Church. :) [I marvel at the protection of the (created and uncreated) Immaculate Conception!]

  • David

    Well, I’ve gopt a question: Regarding the bishops we are supposed to obey: how many of them have concealed pedophile priests? How many are involved with Masonic lodges? Hmmm! I’ll take the apparitions, thank you.